Did Adam die spiritually when he sinned?

[JonC]

JonC you have just shown what I have been saying. We find Father, Son and Spirit in one verse so we can conclude that the Trinity is true. Deduction. And I agree we can show verses that God is One, and I can show verses where each are "persons". Again deduction for the Trinity. And that is what I have been saying re Adam spiritually dead. We are shown that separation from Christ is spiritually dead so logically separation form God by Adam would be spiritually dead. Sin separates us from God whether in OT or NT it results in the same thing. Do you see what I am saying?
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have built barriers between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He does not hear.

I do not need the words God is Sovereign to know that He is and I do not need the words Adam was spiritually dead to know that he was.

No. I never said anything about finding doctrine in one verse.

What I mean is doctrine, particularly doctrine we build on, should be in "what is written" rather than "derived" from Scripture.

An example is Jehovah Witness doctrine. It is certainly based on Scripture and derived from Scripture but it is a false teaching.

I can find verses actually stating the doctrine of the Trinity. But there are no verses stating that one can spiritually die, much less that Adam and Eve did.

What we do have is God's words that Adam would die (return to dust). The only biblical argument you can make is that Adam physically died (returned to dust).

 

[Salty]

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[Silverhair]

@Silverhair

The issue is not people believing Adam died spiritually or even physically and resurrected. Nether are true, but that isn't the issue.

The issue is they have the idea and then build doctrines on that shakey ground.

IMHO it is better to simply trust Scripture and rely on what God told Adam regarding this death after Adam sinned.

What did God say would happen to Adam because of his sin?

What did God say to Adam
Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” Did Adam die that day, NO. Was Adam separated from God that day, YES. Sin puts a wall between man and God. I trust what the bible says.

Why then did God prohibit man from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, with the threat that, as soon as he ate thereof, he would surely die?...Are we to regard the tree as poisonous, and suppose that some fatal property resided in the fruit?...Even in the case of the tree of life, the power is not to be sought in the physical character of the fruit....Life is not rooted in man's corporeal nature; it was in his spiritual nature that it had its origin, and from this it derives its stability and permanence also....The power which transforms corporeality into immortality is spiritual in its nature, and could only be imparted to the earthly tree or its fruit through the word of God, through a special operation of the Spirit of God, an operation which we can only picture to ourselves as sacramental in its character, rendering earthly elements the receptacles and vehicles of celestial powers. God had given such a sacramental nature and significance to the two trees in the midst of the garden,
The tree of knowledge was to lead man to the knowledge of good and evil...But as he failed to keep this divinely appointed way, and ate the forbidden fruit in opposition to the command of God, the power imparted by God to the fruit was manifested in a different way. He learned the difference between good and evil from his own guilty experience, and by receiving the evil into his own soul, fell a victim to the threatened death. Thus through his own fault the tree, which should have helped him to attain true freedom, brought nothing but the sham liberty of sin, and with it death, Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament

 

[Silverhair]

No. I never said anything about finding doctrine in one verse.

What I mean is doctrine, particularly doctrine we build on, should be in "what is written" rather than "derived" from Scripture.

An example is Jehovah Witness doctrine. It is certainly based on Scripture and derived from Scripture but it is a false teaching.

I can find verses actually stating the doctrine of the Trinity. But there are no verses stating that one can spiritually die, much less that Adam and Eve did.

What we do have is God's words that Adam would die (return to dust). The only biblical argument you can make is that Adam physically died (returned to dust).

Question, did Adam die the day he ate the fruit? If he died that day then in what way did he die, physically or spiritually? It can only be one or the other.

FYI I base my theology on the whole bible. I see sin causes separation, spiritual death in the NT so I see no reason to think that it would not do the same in the OT.

 

[JonC]

What did God say to Adam
Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” Did Adam die that day, NO. Was Adam separated from God that day, YES. Sin puts a wall between man and God. I trust what the bible says.

Why then did God prohibit man from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, with the threat that, as soon as he ate thereof, he would surely die?...Are we to regard the tree as poisonous, and suppose that some fatal property resided in the fruit?...Even in the case of the tree of life, the power is not to be sought in the physical character of the fruit....Life is not rooted in man's corporeal nature; it was in his spiritual nature that it had its origin, and from this it derives its stability and permanence also....The power which transforms corporeality into immortality is spiritual in its nature, and could only be imparted to the earthly tree or its fruit through the word of God, through a special operation of the Spirit of God, an operation which we can only picture to ourselves as sacramental in its character, rendering earthly elements the receptacles and vehicles of celestial powers. God had given such a sacramental nature and significance to the two trees in the midst of the garden,
The tree of knowledge was to lead man to the knowledge of good and evil...But as he failed to keep this divinely appointed way, and ate the forbidden fruit in opposition to the command of God, the power imparted by God to the fruit was manifested in a different way. He learned the difference between good and evil from his own guilty experience, and by receiving the evil into his own soul, fell a victim to the threatened death. Thus through his own fault the tree, which should have helped him to attain true freedom, brought nothing but the sham liberty of sin, and with it death, Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament

God told Adam that on the day he eats of the tree he would surely die

There are a few possibilities here.

1. That Adam would die sometimes after eating of the fruit (you assume that time as the day he ate of the fruit....but technically it could be any time from that moment forward).

2. That death would become a certainty (move from a potential to a certainty) as emphasized by the double "die" (this is the most consistent interpretation).

3. That eating of the fruit death would begin ("dying you shall die").

But nowhere in Scripture does God tell Adam that he would die on the day he ate of the fruit. Thoe who claim otherwise rearrange the words in one verse of an English translation, ignore what God told Adam when he sinned, and pretend not to have done so

Scripture is important, even more important than traditions we have held for decades. And it is to God's Word that we need to go. When we do we will find God equating death to returning to dust.

And, lest I forget the cast out of the Garden being spiritual death due to sin ...according to God Adam was created outside of the Garden and cast out so that he would not eat of the Tree of Life and live forever.

Can you really not discern how different the claim Adam died spiritually is to Scripture?

 

[JonC]

Question, did Adam die the day he ate the fruit? If he died that day then in what way did he die, physically or spiritually? It can only be one or the other.

FYI I base my theology on the whole bible. I see sin causes separation, spiritual death in the NT so I see no reason to think that it would not do the same in the OT.

Sin is certainly a barrier (the flesh is actually a barrier).

But we cannot read theology into Scripture.

Scripture does not say that he died that day. Scripture does not say he would die on that day.

Scripture uses a double "die" (every other time this is for emphasis). But Scripture does not identify the day Adam would die - only that death would be certain...be his destiny...on that day. Before then it was only a potential

Scripture teaches us that Spiritual Life is ONLY in Christ and this is not temporary. The reason is He IS that life.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

The discussion has been useful overall, food for thought, but continuing to use the language “spiritual death” instead of being “alienated from God,” the reverse being “reconciled to God,” seems to be a sticking point. Perhaps there needs to be discussion based on that phrasing instead.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

So adam stayed alive spiritually even though he sinned??

I didn't say that, in fact, I already addressed that here:

I can agree that Adam became spiritually dead.
The author of Genesis, however, says no such thing and does not intend for us to understand it that way.

get off theology. it is just reality.

If you continue to read Genesis through a Theological lense, I will continue to tell you you are mistaken for doing so.

Adam did not remain alive spiritually after he sinned

True or not.....Genesis says nothing about that.
Genesis is not concerned with "Spiritual death" it is concerned with physical death.
Let the narrative shape your reading of the text in lieu of letting your Theological assumptions shape your reading of the narrative.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Do you actually believe that God has changed? If we post the law/cross are considered to have died spiritually due to our sin do you think it was somehow different prior to the law/cross? There are many things that we understand post the cross that they did not understand prior to the cross so to say the original audience did not understand spiritual death is actually a weak argument.

I am not requiring that they had to view "you will surely die" in the same way we do but the bible is clear that separation from God is spiritual death. So what you have to make clear in your mind is, did Adam's sin separate him from God. If it did then Adam died spiritually. If you say it did not then how does our sin separate us from God?

All of this has been addressed in previous posts.
I don't know where the question:
"Do you actually believe that God has changed"? came from; or what was in your head when you asked it. No one believes that methinks.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't know that Adam ever repented and placed his faith in God. Nor Eve.

I'm not saying they DIDN'T--I just don't know any place in Scripture that indicates they did. Do you?

It is doubtful Adam was aware of any new birth--Nicodemus, a master in Israel, was not aware of it, over 4000 years later.

Remember, In his spiritual seperation he knew he was naked. They’re for all to see. What did God do to cover his nakedness?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I didn't say that, in fact, I already addressed that here:


If you continue to read Genesis through a Theological lense, I will continue to tell you you are mistaken for doing so.

True or not.....Genesis says nothing about that.
Genesis is not concerned with "Spiritual death" it is concerned with physical death.
Let the narrative shape your reading of the text in lieu of letting your Theological assumptions shape your reading of the narrative.

I never heard of this from anyone or any church I have been until I heard it here.

Sorry Bro. I disagree with you completely

 

[Salty]

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