Did Adam Have a Free Will?

[37818]

The obtaining of God's knowledge of good and evil because of Adam's free will disobedience causing mankind to have the sin nature and no longer have an actual free wil because of that knowledge of evil. Genesis 3:22.

 

[Aaron]

The last Adam must die;
Therefore, the first Adam must fall.

Creation was for the reason of the Cross. I agree.

 

[JoshOne]

@Baptizo said:

My position is that Adam had the libertarian free choice not to sin, whereas the Calvinist’s position is that Adam had no other choice but to sin. If God has decreed all things that come to pass, that would include Adam’s sin. I’ve heard others try to explain this away with the concept of primary and secondary causes, but I chalk all that up to philosophical thinking.

Christ said, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree good.

Adam was created good...but not uncorruptible. What corrupting influence was found in the Garden, and was it there by God's will?

This does not accurately define the Calvinist position on this issue.

There is a section in the Reformed Standwrds (Westminster Confession of Faith) on their chapter of Free Will and says this:

Westminster Confession of Faith 9.1
God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.[a]
a: Deuteronomy 30:19, Matthew 17:12, James 1:14

Westminster Confession of Faith 9.2
Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God,[a] but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.
a: Genesis 1:26, Ecclesiastes 7:29
b: Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6

 

[Aaron]

God could have prevented Satan from entering the Garden, He could have created man without the possibilities of sin, but He didn't, why?

It's not that God decreed that man would fall so much as the reality of free will must run its course.

In order for God to have what He wanted from man, that is, man by his own choice choosing to be with God, man has to exercise that free will.

The inevitable result of man exercising this gift of free will was his choice to believe a lie. This scenario had to be made possible for man if God were have what He wanted in the end.

Now that man has exercised his free will and brought pain and destruction, death, disease, etc., upon himself, God made a way for those who would freely choose Him, to be with Him through His plan of redemption.

So the corrupting influence was in the Garden according to God's permissive will to accomplish God's determinate will. I agree though the distinction between permissive and determinate wills is largely imaginary. The Serpent was sent as was the lying spirit was sent to the mouths of Ahab's prophets of Baal.

But the end of Redemption is a new heaven and a new earth into which it is impossible for sin and death to enter. The children of God cannot "choose" to sin, because they are born of God [1 John 3:9 ] for Whom it is impossible to lie [Hebrews 6:18].

 

[37818]

The last Adam must die;
Therefore, the first Adam must fall.

Is a backwards lie.

 

[Aaron]

In A. W. Pink's words, God arranged the fall.

You closet Calvinist, you!

 

[37818]

The truth.

1 Corinthians 15:22, For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[Aaron]

I don't believe libertarian free-will exists. In fact, that Adam sinned and ate the fruit which was pleasing to the eye, good for food, and desirable to make one wise like God kinda points to Adam being influenced by the desires of the flesh.

Adam's sin was the fruit produced by his nature (by having a mind set on the desires of the flesh).

Satan deceived Eve, and I suppose you could say Satan and Eve aided in Adam's temptation. But giving in to that temptation was the corruption and that was Adam. His mind was set on the desires of the flesh.

Proceeding on the premise that a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, it's impossible that Adam and Eve corrupted themselves. The corrupting influence was the lie. The Devil, having the power of death and sin, corrupted them. Jesus did not destroy the works of Adam, He destroyed the works of the Devil [1 John 3:8].

 

[Silverhair]

Are we able to be sinless?

What does that have to do with the question, "Do we have a free will or not?"

You are just trying to avoid the obvious answer.

 

[JoshOne]

Proceeding on the premise that a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, it's impossible that Adam and Eve corrupted themselves. The corrupting influence was the lie. The Devil, having the power of death and sin, corrupted them. Jesus did not destroy the works of Adam, He destroyed the works of the Devil [1 John 3:8].

Yes I don’t think this poses an issue. Every orthodox Christian whether Calvinist or Arminian shouldn’t have a problem affirming this.

 

[Aaron]

Care to show where God said Adam did not have a free will after the fall?

[Matthew 7:18] ...neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

[Silverhair]

Man has a limited free will … he can choose from among options, but not from among all possible options without influence … man can only choose according to his (fallen) nature or his (new) nature … the leopard cannot change its spots and the bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

God’s plan is not driven by the choices of man … that violates “first cause” and ”aseity of God”.

Man as you say has a limited free will, he can not flap his arms a fly but he can and does evaluate information and make real choices. Why else would we see that the Holy Spirit convicts man of sin if man was not able to change his mind about that sin?

The gospel message is information that is presented to man and according to the bible it is "the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes". When man hears the gospel message he can either freely trust it or freely reject it, again as we are told in scripture Eph 1:13 and Rom 10:9-10.

The bible does not support your "man can only choose according to his (fallen) nature or his (new) nature" view. That is a view imported into the bible by man.

Those that continue in there sin will receive the consequence of that sin which is the message of the leopard and the bad tree. It should not be used as you seem to be doing to prove that man cannot change. Note what God says through Jeremiah:
Jer 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil." So man must be able to change.

Man does not drive God's plan man works within God's plan.

 

[Aaron]

Why?

Because that was God's will, and the reason He prepared the Rest on the Seventh Day.

Hebrews 4:3-4 NLT
For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, "In my anger I took an oath: 'They will never enter my place of rest,'" even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: "On the seventh day God rested from all his work." (Genesis 2:2)

Hebrews 10:7 KJV
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

 

[Silverhair]

[Matthew 7:18] ...neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

That does not support your view.

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Mat 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Christ was warning about false prophets. Those that has made the choice to reject Christ and twist the words of God.

Those verses support a free will rather than deny it. That is unless you are saying that God has determined that we have false prophets enter the church.

 

[Aaron]

That does not support your view.

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Mat 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Christ was warning about false prophets. Those that has made the choice to reject Christ and twist the words of God.

Those verses support a free will rather than deny it. That is unless you are saying that God has determined that we have false prophets enter the church.

Do you need another? Happy to oblige.

[Romans 8:7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[Silverhair]

Because that was God's will, and the reason He prepared the Rest on the Seventh Day.

Hebrews 4:3-4 NLT
For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, "In my anger I took an oath: 'They will never enter my place of rest,'" even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: "On the seventh day God rested from all his work." (Genesis 2:2)

Hebrews 10:7 KJV
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Adam sin of his own volition. He chose to eat the fruit even knowing what God had said.

The rest was prepared for those that would trust in Him. Many OT saints entered that rest never hearing of Christ or the gospel message. They had faith in the living God.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 Indeed, by faith our ancestors received approval.

Starting with Abel and on through the OT saints we see that they trusted in God just as we do now. We as they have the choice to make, choose wisely:
Heb 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

 

[Aaron]

Adam sin of his own volition. He chose to eat the fruit even knowing what God had said.

The rest was prepared for those that would trust in Him. Many OT saints entered that rest never hearing of Christ or the gospel message. They had faith in the living God.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 Indeed, by faith our ancestors received approval.

Starting with Abel and on through the OT saints we see that they trusted in God just as we do now. We as they have the choice to make, choose wisely:
Heb 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

You missed the point. God's will from the beginning was that His Son prepare a Rest for the people of God by offering His body as a sacrifice for sin. That's what the Apostle asserted, and He cited the creation of the Seventh Day as infallible proof of that fact.

Creation was for the Cross.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you need another? Happy to oblige.

[Romans 8:7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Still missing the mark.

You should start reading God's word in context, it will correct a number of the errors you seem to have.

Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Rom 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Those who choose to reject God will not understand the things of God or subject themselves to God. But we also see those who are of the Spirit, they do understand His word and subject themselves to Him.

So we see free will choice. As Paul wrote
Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

And we have biblical text that shows how one comes to have Christ in us. Eph 1:13, Rm 10:9-10, Rom 1:16, Rom 10:13

 

[Silverhair]

You missed the point. God's will from the beginning was that His Son prepare a Rest for the people of God by offering His body as a sacrifice for sin. That's what the Apostle asserted, and He cited the creation of the Seventh Day as infallible proof of that fact.

Creation was for the Cross.

God prepared a place of rest for those that would believe in Him. We see this in both the OT and NT.

God being omniscient knew that man would try to do it his own way and provided the means for man to restore his broken relationship with God. Whether through faith in the OT or faith in the NT it is still faith in God.

Creation was not for the cross, it was for man so they could have a relationship with God.

 

[Aaron]

Still missing the mark.

You should start reading God's word in context, it will correct a number of the errors you seem to have.

Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Rom 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Those who choose to reject God will not understand the things of God or subject themselves to God. But we also see those who are of the Spirit, they do understand His word and subject themselves to Him.

So we see free will choice. As Paul wrote
Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

And we have biblical text that shows how one comes to have Christ in us. Eph 1:13, Rm 10:9-10, Rom 1:16, Rom 10:13

Your eisegesis is entertaining.

[Philippians 2:13 ] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

LOL. I can do this all day.