Did Adam reach age of responsibility before

[billwald]

the apple incident?

We punish our young children to teach them, not to extract revenge on them. Young children can commit wrong acts with lasting consequences even though they are to young to understand the concepts of good and evil.

It is annoying when a child states, "He made me do this." Did Adam "Make" God put him out of the Garden?

 

[Marcia]

the apple incident?

We punish our young children to teach them, not to extract revenge on them. Young children can commit wrong acts with lasting consequences even though they are to young to understand the concepts of good and evil.

It is annoying when a child states, "He made me do this." Did Adam "Make" God put him out of the Garden?

The Bible never mentions an apple.

Not sure what your point is here. Adam didn't "make" God do anything. Adam chose to disobey God and suffered the consequences.

 

[donnA]

no one makes God do anything, convince Him to their will, ever, God is sovereign, we don't bend Him, He bends us.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

the apple incident?

We punish our young children to teach them, not to extract revenge on them. Young children can commit wrong acts with lasting consequences even though they are to young to understand the concepts of good and evil.

It is annoying when a child states, "He made me do this." Did Adam "Make" God put him out of the Garden?

Being a big fan of CS Lewis, I see it this way. There are two tree 1) the knowledge of Good and Evil and 2) the tree of eternal life. By disobeying God by eating from the 1st tree; death is enacted in Adams life body soul and mind. God, knowing, that death is at work in our members did not want man to take of the tree of life and eat it living for ever in this decrepid state. Death provided a means of stopping the degeneration and allows for ressurection. This is what God said

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

It was a mercy that God drove us from the garden.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Adam was quick to play the blame game.....It was the WOMAN YOU gave me!

 

[Crabtownboy]

We punish our young children to teach them, not to extract revenge on them. Young children can commit wrong acts with lasting consequences even though they are to young to understand the concepts of good and evil.

It is annoying when a child states, "He made me do this." Did Adam "Make" God put him out of the Garden?

Adam was of an age of accountability else he would not have been ashamed after eating the fruit at his nakedness.

In a manner of speaking, we all live in a Garden of Eden until we become mature enough to know that an action is wrong but we do it anyway. At that point we are ejected, again in a manner of speaking, from our Eden.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Adam was of an age of accountability else he would not have been ashamed after eating the fruit at his nakedness.

In a manner of speaking, we all live in a Garden of Eden until we become mature enough to know that an action is wrong but we do it anyway. At that point we are ejected, again in a manner of speaking, from our Eden.

What about original sin?

 

[billwald]

>Adam was of an age of accountability else he would not have been ashamed after eating the fruit at his nakedness.

Good answer. had not thought of that. Thanks.

Original sin - Bible reports someplace that God does not punish the children for the sins of the fathers thus our sin nature is not a punishment but probably a result of defective DNA from leaving the protection of the Garden.

 

[lori4dogs]

>Adam was of an age of accountability else he would not have been ashamed after eating the fruit at his nakedness.

Good answer. had not thought of that. Thanks.

Original sin - Bible reports someplace that God does not punish the children for the sins of the fathers thus our sin nature is not a punishment but probably a result of defective DNA from leaving the protection of the Garden.

I guess the point being raised would be, is the doctrine of original sin accurate to the testimony of the bible? I'd be interested in hearing about this from a protestant viewpoint.

 

[Crabtownboy]

What about original sin?

If I understand what you mean by 'original sin' then I do not believe in the concept.

Will you explain what you mean by the term?

 

[billwald]

The only "curse" mentioned in the garden story involves snakes without feet, hard work, pain in child birth, and weeds growing in the veggie garden.

On the other hand, the one observable truth in Christian doctrine is that humans are morally defective. There has been no moral improvement in human morality since pictograms and writing were invented. I think it is defective DNA from being kicked out of the Garden.

 

[lori4dogs]

If I understand what you mean by 'original sin' then I do not believe in the concept.

Will you explain what you mean by the term?

I believe the most common bible reference which seems to support 'original sin' would be found in Romans 5:12

Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I believe the most common bible reference which seems to support 'original sin' would be found in Romans 5:12

Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

I do not see how this verse condemns newborn infants as being guilty of sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Crabtownboy: I do not see how this verse condemns newborn infants as being guilty of sin.

HP: Now there is a man that can read and utilize the Scriptures for what it says, and not simply utilize it as a means to blindly support a common but faulty Augustinian dogma.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Adam chose to disobey God and suffered the consequences.

HP: Did God foreknow the choice that Adam would make? If so, tell us if in fact if Adam could have done something other than what God foreknew him ‘choosing.’

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Lori4dogs: I guess the point being raised would be, is the doctrine of original sin accurate to the testimony of the bible?

HP: Simply stated, the Augustinian notion of original sin is not supported by Scripture.

 

[Marcia]

Man is born separated from God and needs redemption. The sin of Adam as our federal head imputes sin to all men, just as the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us by faith when we believe on him.

We are not born righteous; we are born with a sin nature which is an offense to God. To believe we are born righteous or morally neutral is a view of the Pelagian heresy.

But I'm not sure that I'm in for a debate on this as we have just debated this on another thread in the Baptist only area and I think we've debated this before here.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

No where does Scriptures state or imply that we a born sinners.

Marcia, as believers, it does absolutely no good to misrepresent the views of another. You are only half correct in what you say concerning Pelagius as I understand his views. If you are implying, as it would clearly seem, that he believed a moral being could be ‘born righteous’ it would be nothing short of a clear misrepresentation of the views of Pelagius. To say that children are born neither righteous nor sinful is not heresy but in accordance to reason, Scripture, and any similitude of justice.

 

[Marcia]

No where does Scriptures state or imply that we a born sinners.

Marcia, as believers, it does absolutely no good to misrepresent the views of another. You are only half correct in what you say concerning Pelagius as I understand his views. If you are implying, as it would clearly seem, that he believed a moral being could be ‘born righteous’ it would be nothing short of a clear misrepresentation of the views of Pelagius. To say that children are born neither righteous nor sinful is not heresy but in accordance to reason, Scripture, and any similitude of justice.

We are born with a sin nature or, if you prefer, a fallen nature; this is why we need to be redeemed. If this were not true, babies would not die since death is a result of the first sin and was passed on to all. Physical and spiritual death are the result of the first sin.

I think the whole of scripture supports this, especially Gen. 3,Rom. 5 and 8, and 1 Cor. 15.

Gen 3 shows us physical death as the result of sin (which is referred to in Rom. 5):
"For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return."

Adam hid from God - this was spiritual death right away because he was afraid of God and had to hide - the relationship and closeness with God was broken. Adam and Eve were covered with the skin of an animal (to cover their nakedness, which was no longer innocent - they had forfeited innocence for the guilt of sin) and cast out of the Garden. This casting out was the result of and evidence of their spiritual death - separation from God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: We are born with a sin nature....

HP: We have not had a good debate for a long time.:smilewinkgrin:

Where Augustine and those that follow him in his error go wrong is when you attach morally to the physical. The physical is the result of a necessitated realm, whereas the spiritual or moral can only be predicated of a realm of choice. If one cannot do anything other than it does under the very same set of circumstances, neither choice nor morality can be predicated of the results. It is an oxymoron to say that one can be born into a state of morality, yet have absolutely no choice in the outcome. Morality denotes choice, NOT necessity as Augustine and his followers would clearly imply.

Marcia: I think the whole of scripture supports this.....

HP: Certainly it shows that we are finite and as such will see death. How does this establish the notion of being born morally depraved? Certainly physical depravity is a result or consequence of sin, but if you confuse the moral realm with the physical realm you gender much error and absurd deductions. If there is no choice, morality cannot be predicated period. Morality is at its core involves a choice between benevolence and selfishness. Scripture is clear. No knowledge or ability? No blame. Joh 9:41 “Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.” Jas 4:17 “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to HIM (EM) it is sin.”

Furthermore, God cleared up the notion of inherited blame once for all.
Eze 18:20 “The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

Marcia: Adam hid from God ....

HP: Again, how does this prove or establish moral guilt from birth? There is absolutely nothing in the verses you mention that establish moral guilt from birth or moral depravity from birth, or original sin, apart from first buying into the false Augustinian presuposition that sins lies in the constitution of the flesh as opposed to the will.