Did Adam reach age of responsibility before

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

By the way DHK, if you will take the time to read what I have posted, you will find that I not once called man sovereign without careful clarification as to the realm and limits of that soverignty. If you are going to quote me on my views of man's sovereignty, it would be within the realm of fair play to include the limits I placed upon my comments. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

By the way DHK, if you will take the time to read what I have posted, you will find that I not once called man sovereign without careful clarification as to the realm and limits of that soverignty. If you are going to quote me on my views of man's sovereignty, it would be within the realm of fair play to include the limits I placed upon my comments. :thumbs:

You said

Of a truth, a Sovereign God has chosen to create beings sovereignly able to from [sic] moral intents...

Man is not sovereign even in his moral intent or choices.
He has a sin nature and given the choice will make the wrong one most of the time. Thus the necessity of teaching a child to tell the truth. Why don't I have to teach my children how to lie? They know this art without any teaching at all. But to consistently tell the truth, they have to be taught. Why? Because of their sin nature.
Man is not sovereign in his moral choices.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Sorry for the typo DHK. it should have read 'form' instead of 'from'. Here is how it should have read:
Of a truth, a Sovereign God has chosen to create beings sovereignly able to form moral intents apart from force or coercion and as such personally responsible for the formation of all moral intents and subsequent moral actions.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: “He has a sin nature and given the choice will make the wrong one most of the time”

HP: If one happens to choose morally right as opposed to sin, how is that possible if the sin nature causes him to sin? What force makes it possible to overcome the force you say causes him to sin? If it is possible to choose in opposition to ones nature, how can it be said his nature causes him to choose sin??

Is it possible for a human being, not even saved, to make a proper moral choice?( not that it would make a significant change in his over-all moral character) If it is possible, would you conclude that a benevolent force would have to reign in that choice, making it possible for him to overcome a sinful outcome?

 

[DHK]

HP: If one happens to choose morally right as opposed to sin, how is that possible if the sin nature causes him to sin? What force makes it possible to overcome the force you say causes him to sin? If it is possible to choose in opposition to ones nature, how can it be said his nature causes him to choose sin??

Is it possible for a human being, not even saved, to make a proper moral choice?( not that it would make a significant change in his over-all moral character) If it is possible, would you conclude that a benevolent force would have to reign in that choice, making it possible for him to overcome a sinful outcome?

Humanism is that anti-Christ religion that promotes the idea that man is good and not evil. If you take Christ out of Christianity you would believe in this godless religion of humanism. Man is not basically good. He is inherently evil. In fact before a man gets saved he must first realized he is sinful and lost. Otherwise, why does he need to be saved?

 

[Marcia]

HP: Did God foreknow the choice that Adam would make? If so, tell us if in fact if Adam could have done something other than what God foreknew him ‘choosing.’

Of course God knew what Adam would do; that does not mean he made Adam do it. Adam was accountable because he could have chosen not to disobey.

I am not sure I'm sticking around here to read the other 10 pages.

 

[Marcia]

So are infants saved by faith or not?

Everyone is saved by grace. Infants are unable to have faith, as far as we know, but they are saved by grace. That is my best understanding of scripture and is what I say on these type of threads. We just finished this discussion on another BB forum.

It seems people want to push in certain doctrines by bringing up what happens to babies when they die, but God's word does not clearly tell us what happens to them. God must have a good reason for not telling us.

What we are responsible for is learning and understanding what God does clearly tell us, which is to take the gospel into the world and tell people that if they believe on Christ, they will be saved. This is all we need to know about salvation. It is useless and distracting to argue about infants. God is good and merciful, and I trust Him when it comes to infants.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia, maybe, just maybe, you might consider promoting infant baptism, not knowing as you say.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, who asked or said anything about humanism??? Who said man is inherently good on this list??? Why do you avoid straight forward questions as to your beliefs and then complain because you say others misrepresent your views? Now is the time to clear up some of the misconceptions that might exist concerning your views. This is your golden opportunity. Why not answer the questions directly?:wavey:

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, maybe, just maybe, you might consider promoting infant baptism, not knowing as you say.

There is no reason to do so because baptism doesn't save anyone.

And there are no examples of infant baptism in the Bible.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Adam was accountable because he could have chosen not to disobey.

HP: Now simply be consistent Marcia and apply that God given intuitive reasoning of immutable justice to all, including those that follow Adam. It would be no more just for God to condemn you and I for disobedience than it would have to condemn Adam if in reality he had no choice.

 

[Marcia]

HP: Now simply be consistent Marcia and apply that God given intuitive reasoning of immutable justice to all, including those that follow Adam. It would be no more just for God to condemn you and I for disobedience than it would have to condemn Adam if in reality he had no choice.

Adam was made "good." He did have a choice not to sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: There is no reason to do so because baptism doesn't save anyone.

And there are no examples of infant baptism in the Bible.

HP: Now you are thinking!:thumbsup: Do you just suppose the reason might be that they simply need no baptism, not having any defilement having not sinned? Maybe that is why Scripture recognizes no need for it. Hmmmmm. Just a thought to contemplate. :wavey:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia, first, no man can be born morally upright, for uprightness cannot be predicated apart from a righteous choice. Adam was not born righteous, but rather with capacity for righteous, which obviously he did walk in for some time even with Eve.

God has made all my children ‘good’ as well Marcia, but as was Adam were neither created sinful or holy. Those following Adam certainly were born physically depraved with depraved natural sensibilities in a manner Adam was not, but still did not sin until reaching the age of accountability yielding selfishly to those propensities. In the same manner all others have sinned as well. Although they might not have sinned after the same similitude as Adam, they all have sinned just as Scripture states they have. Not because of Adam, nor the nature they were born with nor any other force or coercion, although that nature is a formidable obstacle and clearly serves to enhance temptation, but rather by willingly yielding their wills in accordance to selfishness apart from force or coercion.

 

[Marcia]

HP: Now you are thinking!:thumbsup: Do you just suppose the reason might be that they simply need no baptism, not having any defilement having not sinned? Maybe that is why Scripture recognizes no need for it. Hmmmmm. Just a thought to contemplate. :wavey:

No, I don't need to contemplate that. You're still talking as though baptism actually regenerates. Baptism doesn't save; it represents having put faith in Christ.

 

[Marcia]

God has made all my children ‘good’ as well Marcia, but as was Adam were neither created sinful or holy.

No one is born good. Adam was created good because he had no sin nature. But he was a man - not God - so he had the capacity to disobey God, which he did.

Those following Adam certainly were born physically depraved with depraved natural sensibilities in a manner Adam was not, but still did not sin until reaching the age of accountability yielding selfishly to those propensities. In the same manner all others have sinned as well. Although they might not have sinned after the same similitude as Adam, they all have sinned just as Scripture states they have. Not because of Adam, nor the nature they were born with nor any other force or coercion, although that nature is a formidable obstacle and clearly serves to enhance temptation, but rather by willingly yielding their wills in accordance to selfishness apart from force or coercion.

We are born with a sin nature and that is an offense to God. We are born spiritually separated from God, in need of redemption.

As I said, I just finished this topic a few days ago in another forum and have no wish to rehash it here.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Have a nice evening Marcia. Come back when you feel those nagging questions returning......and they will, trust me. :wavey:

 

[DHK]

God has made all my children ‘good’

A simple belief (as stated above) in the goodness of man, rather than the depravity of man, is humanism.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, here we go again with off the wall charges that do not have the least shred of truth in them. If you think that my beliefs in any way are ‘humanistic’ that simply shows your ignorance of what humanism entails. Marcia, help him out.

Are you going to tell us that by calling a creation of God ‘good’ I am in any way necessitating or making mention of a moral nature as being righteous? You might consider reading the 1rst chapter of Gen. again. Scriptures clearly show every creation of God, with or without moral capacity as being created good. God inspired Scripture DHK and God is no humanist, neither does God make any junk DHK.

 

[Johnv]

A simple belief (as stated above) in the goodness of man, rather than the depravity of man, is humanism.

Not necessarily. Belief in the goodness of man sans the depravity of man would constitute huminism. Belief in the goodness of man weighed with the depravity of man isn't.