Did anything die before sin?

[ReformedBaptist]

If you think animals received the same breath of life God breathed into man, you should hold to many being simply an animal. Just because something doesn't breathe doesn't mean it is not alive. Plants breathe co2, btw.

Concerning Adam and Eve, for God to tell them what would occur would mean they would have the mental faculties necessary to understand it. As humans, we know knowledge of something is needed to process information.

All I accept is what the Scriptures say. God says they have the breath of life, so I agree...they have the breath of life.

Concerning Adam and Eve and their knowledge of what death is I have to assume they could understand it, even without death being in the world, because of how God communicated with them.

This is just simply the way the Scripture reads.

 

[Darrenss1]

All I accept is what the Scriptures say. God says they have the breath of life, so I agree...they have the breath of life.

Concerning Adam and Eve and their knowledge of what death is I have to assume they could understand it, even without death being in the world, because of how God communicated with them.

This is just simply the way the Scripture reads.

As mentioned before death is spoken of as spiritual and physical. There's nothing in scripture that prevents the idea that death existed, even though through Adam death entered the world through his sin, THAT death had specific connatations that relate to the future of mankind, both spiritual and physical. I don't believe Adam and Eve were immortal but they were kept alive by the fruit of the tree of life, I think Adam and Eve could have died without the fruit anyway, thus God's remark about eating of the tree of life and living forever.

Darren

 

[ReformedBaptist]

As mentioned before death is spoken of as spiritual and physical. There's nothing in scripture that prevents the idea that death existed, even though through Adam death entered the world through his sin, THAT death had specific connatations that relate to the future of mankind, both spiritual and physical. I don't believe Adam and Eve were immortal but they were kept alive by the fruit of the tree of life, I think Adam and Eve could have died without the fruit anyway, thus God's remark about eating of the tree of life and living forever.

Darren

What many of us believe, and of course, believe we have Scripture from which we drew this belief, is that death entered the world through sin. There certainly then was a time when Adam and later Eve, had not sinned, and so death was not in the world.

Then the question, was there animal death, et. And we answer no, that the creation itself was subjected to death and corruption with the sin of Adam and Eve.

Romans 8
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Now, this passage is not about the subject in the main, but it speaks directly to it.

What is this bondage of corruption which both mankind and creation are subject to? Was it not the curse that God gave over man and creation when they sinned? I think so.

Since the Scripture teaches that death entered the world through sin, and that Christ atoned for sin with a payment of death, I think there is much in Scripture that prevents the idea that death was in the world before sin.

And let me add, I cannot tell you before the fall of mankind, that even vegetation withered. I have no way of knowing that, I was not there, outside of Scripture. And I cannot think of a text that tells me such things.

 

[zrs6v4]

As far as age, that is an assumption you'll have to make but I'll say this, without aging how can there be reproduction and birth? Adam and Eve were commanded to be fruitful, mulitply, replenish the earth. Growth is a natural cycle that came with ceation.Darren

^That is an interesting point ^

To quite honest so far after reading these posts I would logically say that death probably existed, and as far a Scripture tells us I would say that some of the verses quoted from Romans would contextually hint toward spiritual death being the result of sin.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

^That is an interesting point ^

To quite honest so far after reading these posts I would logically say that death probably existed, and as far a Scripture tells us I would say that some of the verses quoted from Romans would contextually hint toward spiritual death being the result of sin.

Let me challenge that thinking some.

1. The Scripture says, plainly, that death entered the world through sin.

2. The idea some propose, is that this is spirital death.

3. If this is spiritual death only, then did Christ rise only spiritually?

And if not only spiritually, then what is the significance of Him taking on the form of Man at all? What is then meant by Jesus being the Second Adam?

If the death spoken of in Scripture from which Christ saves us is only spiritual, then I say His entire incarnation is rendered meaningless. Yes we understand that through sin our foolish hearts were darkened and we were separated from God...which in modern times we call spiritual death.

Yet the Scriptures speak to death of Christ and His resurrection as reconciling us to God, and redeeming our bodies from the bondage of corruption.

 

[Winman]

^That is an interesting point ^

To quite honest so far after reading these posts I would logically say that death probably existed, and as far a Scripture tells us I would say that some of the verses quoted from Romans would contextually hint toward spiritual death being the result of sin.

I think Romans is speaking of spiritual death as well. It means to be separated from God. When Adam and Eve sinned they did not physically die, but they became fearful of God and hid from his presence.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

We see this in Luke also where the rich man died and went to hell. He was separated from the saints.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

And this is shown in Revelations as well, death means separation from God.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

If you consider plant life to be life (I don't think the scriptures support this), perhaps there was physical death before sin. Adam and Eve were to keep the garden.

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

When you keep a garden you must necessarily pull up weeds and the like. Adam must have had to cut the grass and trim the bushes.

 

[webdog]

If you consider plant life to be life (I don't think the scriptures support this), perhaps there was physical death before sin. Adam and Eve were to keep the garden.

Scripture doesn't have to support it, it's a fact they are alive. If you pull a plant up, it will die. Things that are alive require water and air...plants are no different. They are not alive in the same way animals are, but neither are they in the same way a virus is.

 

[zrs6v4]

My question: Romans 5:12
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

I have always just assumed that physical and spiritual death entered through sin. How can we come to a clear conclusion that Paul isnt just speaking of spiritual death in this passage? (to those that hold this also included physical death)

To attempt to answer my own question I would have to ask why Christ not only had to die physically, but also take the wrath of sin. In this sense it would seem that physical and spiritual death were a result of sin. The problem here then is that why did Christ live perfectly untouched by sin and then age and ultimately die (not that this cant work)?

To really change it up, my next thought was "what was Gods original plan?" it is clear that there was no original plan other than exactly what happened. It wasnt like God had to go to plan B because Adam sinned. Anyway this question is like science, the farther you go the more questions you have and the more confusing it gets..

 

[Winman]

My question: Romans 5:12
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

I have always just assumed that physical and spiritual death entered through sin. How can we come to a clear conclusion that Paul isnt just speaking of spiritual death in this passage? (to those that hold this also included physical death)

To attempt to answer my own question I would have to ask why Christ not only had to die physically, but also take the wrath of sin. In this sense it would seem that physical and spiritual death were a result of sin. The problem here then is that why did Christ live perfectly untouched by sin and then age and ultimately die (not that this cant work)?

To really change it up, my next thought was "what was Gods original plan?" it is clear that there was no original plan other than exactly what happened. It wasnt like God had to go to plan B because Adam sinned. Anyway this question is like science, the farther you go the more questions you have and the more confusing it gets..

Folks have debating this stuff forever.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

IMHO lots of folks interpret this verse wrong. Some teach that we are born with original sin. I do not believe this. I believe man was created with the ability to sin from day one. Adam and Eve could not have sinned if they were absolutely morally perfect like God, God cannot sin. So man was very good, and completely innocent, yet he had the ability to sin.

That said, you do not become guilty for sin unless first there is a law to break.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Here sin is defined, it is a trangression of the law. Adam and Eve only had one commandment that we know of, they were not permitted to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, they had one law, and they broke it. And death was the penalty God had already determined for sin. So this is why death passed upon them. It was a legal sentence.

But God never holds a man accountable for the sins of his parents or vice versa.

Deut 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

If Adam's sin passed upon us as some teach, then God would be punishing us for our father's sin which he says he will not do. No, God says every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

This is why I believe all children who die young go to heaven. They have the ability to do wrong from birth, but they are not accountable for this sin until they are mature enough to understand right from wrong.

And if you read Romans 5:12, that is what it is really saying. Death is the penalty for sin, and therefore death passed upon all men because all men have sinned. They do not die because of Adam's sin, they die because at a certain point they understand right from wrong. And at that point, if they sin they become guilty and the death sentence is passed on them. But it is because of their own sin, not Adam's. And we do not physically die the first time we sin either, so I believe it is speaking of spiritual death, not physical. Even an infant without the ability to understand right from wrong ages.

I believe God knew from the beginning when he created man that man would sin. He did not make men evil, but he did not make us absolutely perfect and without the ability to sin. Otherwise we would be equal to God. We will never be equal to God.

Matt 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

And I used to believe Satan and the angels were created morally perfect, but this is not what the scriptures say either.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

This verse does not say Satan was created without the ability to sin. It says he was perfect "till" iniquity was found in him. So obviously the angels also were created with the ability to sin and are not equal to God.

All we know is that if Adam and Eve would have eaten of the tree of life, then they would have lived forever. So apparently this tree is needed for the nourishment and healing of our physical bodies. And this even seems to be true in heaven.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It seems to me we will eat in heaven. That seems like a great thing, I love to eat.

Matt 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

I could be in error, but I have always believed this verse to be speaking of sitting down and eating. And we see a similar verse in Rev 3:20

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

And Jesus ate after his resurrection.

Luke 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Notice Jesus said flesh and bones, but did not say blood.

 

[Darrenss1]

What many of us believe, and of course, believe we have Scripture from which we drew this belief, is that death entered the world through sin. There certainly then was a time when Adam and later Eve, had not sinned, and so death was not in the world.

The short answer is the "WORLD" is mankind. Therefore SIN passed down to all mankind. Nothing about plants, animals, other life forms other than man. You are referencing the word world in a way I don't think Paul intended. God so loved the "world"...... Only man has need of redemption, for only man sinned and that is the key to understanding the issue, IMO. Only man was made in God's image and is intended to worship and glory God, therefore in specific uses the world relates primarily to man. Sin entered the "world" because man alone sinned....

Satan sinned first but sin had not entered the "world"....

Therefore the death that entered the world through the sin of man is for mankind alone, that doesn't mean there was no death beforehand.

Darren

 

[ReformedBaptist]

The short answer is the "WORLD" is mankind. Therefore SIN passed down to all mankind. Nothing about plants, animals, other life forms other than man. You are referencing the word world in a way I don't think Paul intended. God so loved the "world"...... Only man has need of redemption, for only man sinned and that is the key to understanding the issue, IMO. Only man was made in God's image and is intended to worship and glory God, therefore in specific uses the world relates primarily to man. Sin entered the "world" because man alone sinned....

Satan sinned first but sin had not entered the "world"....

Therefore the death that entered the world through the sin of man is for mankind alone, that doesn't mean there was no death beforehand.

Darren

Then why does the whole creation groan waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God so the creature too is delivered from the bondage of corruption?

I am just saying, the Scripture seems to indicate more in the work of Christ than to save his elect. I am not saying that Jesus atoned for animals. What I am saying is that the Scripture speaks of a total restoration of all things in Christ.

 

[Winman]

Then why does the whole creation groan waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God so the creature too is delivered from the bondage of corruption?

I am just saying, the Scripture seems to indicate more in the work of Christ than to save his elect. I am not saying that Jesus atoned for animals. What I am saying is that the Scripture speaks of a total restoration of all things in Christ.

Well, if you read God's curse, it was not on man's moral nature. God cursed the ground.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

There is not one word about God cursing man's moral nature here. Adam and Eve already had the ability to sin or else they would not have been able to.

No, the curse was on the ground. It would no longer bear fruit without effort. Man would have to work hard to provide the food he needs. Thorns and thistles sprung up. Man was cursed to suffer under the heat of the sun to eat.

So, I believe this is where the curse came upon creation and the laws of thermodynamics were introduced into the world.

And while this may be read to also be a curse to physically die, it does not necessarily say that. It is simply saying that man would labor hard and sweat until he returned to the ground. He does not say he cursed man physically, he says he cursed the ground. Man could have still eaten of the tree of life and lived forever, so physical death was not determined by this curse.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God had to drive man out of the garden to prevent him from eating of it. He had to place Cherubims and a flaming sword to keep man away from it. Notice they were also charged to "keep" this tree. This is why I believe the tree in life shown in Revelations is the same tree shown in Genesis.

Also notice that God said now man is become as one of us to know good and evil. If it is an evil thing to know good and evil, then God himself would be evil, for by his own words he knows this. So there is no moral fall shown in the garden whatsoever.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Well, if you read God's curse, it was not on man's moral nature. God cursed the ground.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

There is not one word about God cursing man's moral nature here. Adam and Eve already had the ability to sin or else they would not have been able to.

No, the curse was on the ground. It would no longer bear fruit without effort. Man would have to work hard to provide the food he needs. Thorns and thistles sprung up. Man was cursed to suffer under the heat of the sun to eat.

So, I believe this is where the curse came upon creation and the laws of thermodynamics were introduced into the world.

And while this may be read to also be a curse to physically die, it does not necessarily say that. It is simply saying that man would labor hard and sweat until he returned to the ground. He does not say he cursed man physically, he says he cursed the ground. Man could have still eaten of the tree of life and lived forever, so physical death was not determined by this curse.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God had to drive man out of the garden to prevent him from eating of it. He had to place Cherubims and a flaming sword to keep man away from it. Notice they were also charged to "keep" this tree. This is why I believe the tree in life shown in Revelations is the same tree shown in Genesis.

Are you disagreeing with what I wrote? Because your reponse is very confusing.

 

[Darrenss1]

Then why does the whole creation groan waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God so the creature too is delivered from the bondage of corruption?

Short answer, how does the whole of creation groan? IS "creation" alive as a corporate entity? I don't think Paul intended that as a literal explanation. Everything about the earth relates to man, the earth is the environment God placed man, therefore man's sins affects the earth.

I am just saying, the Scripture seems to indicate more in the work of Christ than to save his elect. I am not saying that Jesus atoned for animals. What I am saying is that the Scripture speaks of a total restoration of all things in Christ.

God will destroy the earth and create a new one, no problem for God, HE could do it every day if HE so willed, that's the restoration you can expect for "all things" other than man.

Darren

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Short answer, how does the whole of creation groan? IS "creation" alive as a corporate entity? I don't think Paul intended that as a literal explanation. Everything about the earth relates to man, the earth is the environment God placed man, therefore man's sins affects the earth.

Well, its not just a groaning is it..its a waiting, and a longing, and a redemption.

God will destroy the earth and create a new one, no problem for God, HE could do it every day if HE so willed, that's the restoration you can expect for "all things" other than man.

I know the Scriptures about all things being made new. That, it seems, is what all creation is waiting for.

 

[Winman]

Are you disagreeing with what I wrote? Because your reponse is very confusing.

I don't know why my answer is confusing to you. You asked:

Then why does the whole creation groan waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God so the creature too is delivered from the bondage of corruption?

I am just saying, the Scripture seems to indicate more in the work of Christ than to save his elect. I am not saying that Jesus atoned for animals. What I am saying is that the Scripture speaks of a total restoration of all things in Christ.

And I showed you why the creation is groaning. God cursed the ground in Gen 3:17, read for yourself. There is not a single word about man's moral nature being cursed as many teach.

These verses are not difficult to understand.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I don't know why my answer is confusing to you. You asked:



And I showed you why the creation is groaning. God cursed the ground in Gen 3:17, read for yourself. There is not a single word about man's moral nature being cursed as many teach.

These verses are not difficult to understand.

I wasn't asking a question, I was making a point. You have to follow the conversation I was having with the other poster.

 

[Marcia]

I don't see anything in scripture that prevents the understanding of death existing before the fall. You said if death came in by sin, however THAT death was in direct connection to mankind, it was not a exhaustive explanation for ALL life, that is man had sinned but other life on earth did not sin, only man. Therefore its man's sin and sinfulness that affects the rest of the world.

Other life on earth can't sin, so your point is meaningless. Only man can sin. Do you think animals and plants can sin? I can't tell if you think only man can sin or ont.

That's an argument of ommision, which really doesn't get you very far, the bible doesn't give any evidence for alot of things because they aren't in the forefront of the story. I believe death existed before the fall and the bible doesn't teach against that anywhere. As far as age, that is an assumption you'll have to make but I'll say this, without aging how can there be reproduction and birth? Adam and Eve were commanded to be fruitful, mulitply, replenish the earth. Growth is a natural cycle that came with ceation.

It's true that saying since the Bible does not show death existing before Adam and Eve, we might say that is an argument of silence. But because we are told that death came because of man's sin, it is reasonable to believe that there was no death before sin as a strong probability. Iow, I think there is more evidence in the Bible that no death existed before man's sin, than there is evidence that death existed before man's sin. Since the ground and animals are cursed in Gen. 3 after Adam's sin, I think that is strong evidence that death and decay came to animal and plant life after man's sin.

IF Paul meant that creation was groaning and moaning in the literal sense, that means creation had to be an actual interactive conscienceness that Paul was able to communicate with. I think that creation moans and groans in the sense that man impacts and affects the world in a bad way because of mans sin and sinfulness.

Who said anything about creation groaning in a literal sense?? (It's "consciousness" btw) That is not the point here. This is a metaphor for creation's need for redemption from the curse in Genesis 3. And it's talking about creation, not just the earth.

19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

How that relates is that the fall of man and death came by sin relates and impacts mankind and creation is simply the stage where that death happened to occur and preside and is affected by it. As pointed out before I think that the fruit of the tree of life was what was keeping Adam and Eve to live "forever" if they didn't eat of the tree I think they could have died. From what I can tell, our glorified bodies will be completely immortal in a way that Adam and Eve did not experience.

Whether Adam or Eve could have died without eating from the tree of life is pure speculation. What we do know is that God told Adam that eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil would bring death, and that the serpent told them they would not die. So death was the punishment - physical and spiritual. This death spread to creation in Gen. 3 when God cursed the animals and earth, and is referred to in Rom. 8. I think that is a sound interpretation. Bottom line: I think scriptural evidence for death not occuring until after sin is much stronger.

 

[Darrenss1]

And I showed you why the creation is groaning. God cursed the ground in Gen 3:17, read for yourself. There is not a single word about man's moral nature being cursed as many teach.

I'm not sure God cursing the ground is in relation to creation groaning though. It seemed more that God changed the physical laws in some way to make farming more difficult.

Darren

 

[Winman]

I wasn't asking a question, I was making a point. You have to follow the conversation I was having with the other poster.

You weren't asking a question?

Are you disagreeing with what I wrote?

Sorry, the question mark you put at the end of the sentence made me believe you were asking a question. And this point you were making was underneath my previous post you quoted, not someone else's, so I also thought it was directed at me.

In Revelations 22 it says there will be no more curse. I believe this is speaking of the curse on the ground the Lord pronounced in Genesis chapter 3

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

So, I believe the curse in Genesis chapter 3 applied to the physical universe. This is why even unliving things grow old and decay.