Did Cain sin when he committed murder?

[Marcia]

Someone brought this up on another thread.

Did Cain sin when he committed murder since there was no law against murder at that point?

 

[Marcia]

I think Cain sinned because God warned him about this:

Gen 4:
4Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering;

5but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell.
6Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."


So although there was no commandment against murder, God warned Cain about his anger and that sin was "crouching a tthe door" but Cain must "master it."

 

[Jim1999]

quote: 7"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
----------------------------------------

Cain did the wrong thing out of his anger and jealousy, but, in the verse quoted God does not condemn him to death as a penalty for murder. Instead, God tells him to master the sin at his door.

I am repeating what you wrote for emphasis.

You judge.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Pastor Larry]

Yes, it was sin. Murder was always sin because it was stamping out the image of God. That is what God punished him for ("Now cursed are you").

I think we should be careful about using our limited knowledge as a criteria for judgment on OT saints. There is no reason to think that they did not know that murder was wrong. It's a part of the innate sense of right and wrong that all men have always had.

Remember, the Bible is a limited history, or an historiography. It was not intended to give us every little bit of information.

 

[Jim1999]

Going beyond where I left off above. We must read further in the passage where the actual murder happened,,in the fields,,,,,,,,,,,and the judgement of God upon Cain for his disobedience and susequent murder. Cain would know barren fields....no more benefit from God........Cain would face opposition wherever he went......my punishment is more than I can bear.....finally..everyone that finds me will slay me........death!

That's just staying within the context of scripture and not reading beyond that time period.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[LeBuick]

Someone brought this up on another thread.

Did Cain sin when he committed murder since there was no law against murder at that point?

There had to of been some sort of law because the story begins with one tithe being accepted and they other rejected by God. I believe the priesthood they were under was that of Melchisedec even though he doesn't get mentioned until Abraham.

Seems to me his heart wasn't right. His heart wasn't right in his giving to God. His heart wasn't right in his reaction to God's rejection. His heart wasn't right when he killed his brother. His heart wasn't right when he lied to God. There is no way for us to be right with God and wrong with our Brother.

This story is a great look at man.

 

[Jim1999]

The whole story precludes prior instruction on sin offerings. Perhaps God instructed them so. As we read other scriptures about sin offering we get to understand the whole picture.

The one (Abel) offered the lamb, the blood, as an offering, and this was acceptable to God,,,as it was with the blood of Jesus for the sin of the whole world. The other (Cain) offering was simply the toil of his hands and not within the orders of God, or whoever instructed them beforehand.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[LeBuick]

The whole story precludes prior instruction on sin offerings. Perhaps God instructed them so. As we read other scriptures about sin offering we get to understand the whole picture.

The one (Abel) offered the lamb, the blood, as an offering, and this was acceptable to God,,,as it was with the blood of Jesus for the sin of the whole world. The other (Cain) offering was simply the toil of his hands and not within the orders of God, or whoever instructed them beforehand.

Cheers,

Jim

Now this is what gets me Jim, I've heard your version but if it is so it would be contrary to the message of the storehouse where the grains etc... were kept. Now don't take me wrong because I have no real answer to verse 3 except to wonder if it means grown from the ground or did he pick the fruit up off the ground????

 

[Jim1999]

Scripture only tells us that is the fruit of the ground. Whether he picked it up off the ground or actually picked the growth in the field, it was still not a blood offering, which seems to be the acceptable offering through all time.......the blood offering, the blood of the cross.......

Crops from the warehouse were not sin offerings per se. Only blood would suffice.

The grain offering is tantamount to works..he worked for his salvation.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Marcia]

Scripture only tells us that is the fruit of the ground. Whether he picked it up off the ground or actually picked the growth in the field, it was still not a blood offering, which seems to be the acceptable offering through all time.......the blood offering, the blood of the cross.......

Crops from the warehouse were not sin offerings per se. Only blood would suffice.

The grain offering is tantamount to works..he worked for his salvation.

Cheers,

Jim

This raise another question in my mind. I always hear that Cain's offering was not accepted because it was not a blood offering, but could it be it was the lack of faith in him toward God, or some deficient view of God?

By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. Heb. 11.4

 

[Jim1999]

There is an interesting progression in Cain's life. His life was spared..only speculation says what that mark was, but some writers suggestion it was so obnoxious that people avoided him..so we have a form of isolation.

His descendents did marvellous things. The much needed trades were formed, a city was built; a variety of farms were started. A virtual subsistance for the city of Nod.

And in the end we have the very beginning of public worship : "Enos then began men men to call upon the name of the LORD." (4:26)

I am not sure where to put Cain in relation to salvation. His view of God seemed to be from a rebellious heart, but how many of us have experienced this? He was used of God to build a much needed city..remember, the population of earth couldn't have been very large, and even if we believe their were other creations, we are here dealing with a specific area of earth, the place where Cain was sent.

We could write quite a story based on what we have and what we write just may be as factual as anything based on what little information we get in this passage.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Marcia]

There is an interesting progression in Cain's life. His life was spared..only speculation says what that mark was, but some writers suggestion it was so obnoxious that people avoided him..so we have a form of isolation.

His descendents did marvellous things. The much needed trades were formed, a city was built; a variety of farms were started. A virtual subsistance for the city of Nod.

And in the end we have the very beginning of public worship : "Enos then began men men to call upon the name of the LORD." (4:26)

But another view of this could be that these trades and cities were not necessarily good. These things are recorded but not in a way that suggests they are good. Plus, out of this came Lamech, the first man recorded to have more than one wife and another murderer!

Gen 4:
23Lamech said to his wives,
"Adah and Zillah,
Listen to my voice,
You wives of Lamech,
Give heed to my speech,
For I have killed a man for wounding me;
And a boy for striking me;
24If Cain is avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold."

It seems he tries to use Cain as an excuse.

The calling upon the Lord seems more connected to Seth than to Cain:

25Adam had relations with his wife again; and she gave birth to a son, and named him Seth, for, she said, "God has appointed me another offspring in place of Abel, for Cain killed him."
26To Seth, to him also a son was born; and he called his name Enosh Then men began to call upon the name of the LORD.

And it was all building up to a lot of evil leading to the Flood!

 

[Jim1999]

Guess I better read it again. It has been a long time since I read that part of Genesis. In the morning. My eyes are better then. Not my brain, just my eyes.

Cheers,

Jim

PS.Yeppers, you caught me. I had Enos starting in chapter 5....read, read and read again..sorry

 

[Marcia]

Guess I better read it again. It has been a long time since I read that part of Genesis. In the morning. My eyes are better then. Not my brain, just my eyes.

Cheers,

Jim

PS.Yeppers, you caught me. I had Enos starting in chapter 5....read, read and read again..sorry

It's an interesting chapter! I read it quite thoroughly for some reason a couple of years ago and it stuck in my mind.
:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Jim1999]

You might think by now I would know better than to trust a failing memory. Shucks, wife even has to write what day it is on our whiteboard. Sometimes I get posting here and forget what I am posting about half way through.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Tom Butler]

Further than the question about Cain's sin in killing Abel since there was no law, we have to remember that that was no written law for, what, 2000 years or more, until Moses.

Yet there were obviously standards of behavior that pleased or displeased God. There was sin, for God punished with the flood. God must have communicated his standards in some way. Conscience, maybe?

 

[donnA]

There was no law written when Noah built the ark and God said men were evil, and He was going to destroy people and the earth because of it.
I seem to remember some verse that says something like God writes His laws on mens(people) hearts.

 

[Salty]

A quick look indicates the word sin only occurs once (Gen 4:7) before the Flood

 

[blackbird]

There was no law written when Noah built the ark and God said men were evil, and He was going to destroy people and the earth because of it.
I seem to remember some verse that says something like God writes His laws on mens(people) hearts.

You are right ---- just because the law was not written on paper---does not mean the law does not exist(God's law, that is) Cain was guilty of the command that says, "Thou shalt not kill"----in the mind of God he stood guilty

The tragedy of all tragedies, though, is---God offered the avenue of repentance--but Cain "went out from the presence of the Lord"----He "deported" himself and became a fugitive and a vagabond---people who are not guilty of murder do not become fugitives and vagabonds

Tragedy is----people still choose to "go in the way of Cain"----just like Jude's epistle says

 

[John Toppass]

There is an interesting progression in Cain's life. His life was spared..only speculation says what that mark was, but some writers suggestion it was so obnoxious that people avoided him..so we have a form of isolation.

His descendents did marvellous things. The much needed trades were formed, a city was built; a variety of farms were started. A virtual subsistance for the city of Nod.

And in the end we have the very beginning of public worship : "Enos then began men men to call upon the name of the LORD." (4:26)

I am not sure where to put Cain in relation to salvation. His view of God seemed to be from a rebellious heart, but how many of us have experienced this? He was used of God to build a much needed city..remember, the population of earth couldn't have been very large, and even if we believe their were other creations, we are here dealing with a specific area of earth, the place where Cain was sent.

We could write quite a story based on what we have and what we write just may be as factual as anything based on what little information we get in this passage.

Cheers,

Jim

Enos was not from the line of Cain but was the firstborn of Seth (Cains brother). I see that Cain's first born was Enoch and Cain built a city and named it after his son. Cain is still glorifying himself and not God! Cains descendents were all known for what they themselves did instead of what or how there relationship with God was.

Seth's first son was Enosh and that is when men started to call on the name of the Lord.

Edit* I had not read your correction, Jim. Not wanting to rub salt.