Did Christ actually save anyone on the cross?

Wes

Why is physical death the fate of all men?

 

What makes you believe man was made an eternal being? There is nothing in scripture that states that God mad man an eternal being. If man were an eternal being he would have been with God while God was doing the creating. So, it should be obvious that physical man was destined to die.

Sin did not change man's physical makeup. It did, however, alter man's spiritual make up because man's spirit became disobedient to God, and thereby separated from God who is spirit.

 

Wes

Did I say or imply that man was an eternal being? NO!

I asked a simple question: Why is physical death the fate of all men? In response you present the above garbage, but that is not unusual for you.

You are mistaken, however, when you state:

God told Adam and Eve if they ate of the forbidden fruit they would die, both spiritually and physically. The Apostle Paul tells us in Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: It is obvious that because of Adams sin death entered the world. If Adams sin caused death to enter the world then it follows that God created Adam and Eve to live forever. That does not mean they were eternal since they were created.

 

It was because of Adam's sin that you exist!

If Adam had not sinned, then there would be two human's still living on the face of this world, Adam and Eve for they, according to you, were made to be eternal.

There would be no book of Life from before the foundation of the world, for Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden. They would not have been commanded 'outside' the Garden to be fruitful and multiply.

If man was made to be eternal why would there be a "lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world"? Why was the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world? Wasn't the stated purpose for the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world?

No sir, you can toss any notion of everlasting man right out the window, such notions are invalid because God set in motion, his plan of salvation from before the foundation of the world, which also predates the creation of man.

 

Do we need to go back to SIN-101 and OMNIscience 101 and start over?

"The wages of sin is death; the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord", Ro. 6:23.--Sin, its consequences, and the remedy--in one verse. That will stand in eternity--by the Grace of God.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

How do you know that there would have never been any other people born? Assuming a lot aren't you?

 

Sure, aren't you with your position?

 

It is indeed sad that you would go to such lengths in your attempt to defend that which is indefensible. Sad, very sad!</font>[/QUOTE]

Apparently to answer the question from a Biblical basis would counter your false doctrine so you chose to ignore the question and go off on a tangent, just as you are in the above remarks.

As far as I know no one on this Forum denies the foreknowledge of God regarding the fall and His purpose in response to that fall. However, you have denied that death is the result of sin contrary to Scripture:

Genesis 2:16, 17
16. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

WES! I don't expect you to roll over when you cannot refute a post by Scripture but please stop twisting and misstating posts by others. It is certainly unChristian!</font>[/QUOTE]

 

If man was made to be eternal as some believe Adam and Eve were before they sinned, then what is the purpose for "being fruitful and multiplying"? Would Adam and Eve's children also be eternal? And yes they would be eternal from their beginning on, if death were not already part of the plan.

It is not obvious that because of sin death entered the world. Death would have happened anyhow otherwise there is no reason to perpetuate the species through procreation which is the meaning of 'be fruitful and multiply'. God's Plan for man is simple, he began with two, gave them the capability and the desire to procreate and produce "carbon copies" of themselves so that there would be many. But sin was a factor in that man sinned. Sin brought with it a penalty of death. Because sin is "of the spirit" because the spirit is the life of the flesh, the penalty of sin must also be spiritual, so before Adam and Eve Sinned, they were spiritually alive in God's spirit, but their sin separated them from the source of spiritual life, God who is spirit. That separation is called death. God had a plan to reunite man to him in spirit (to quicken men) through faith. That plan included dealing with those who refused to "reunite" with Him. They get cast into the lake of Fire, which is called the second death. And because it seems all who are cast therein are Spirit beings, then the lack of fire must be the death of spirit.

Adam sinned and lived a mere 930 years, his children lived lives nearing that same number of years. for several generations, until sin became so great that God, finding one righteous man Noah told him to build a boat because he was going to destroy all life on earth, and continue it again through the seed of this one righteous man. Sin was on the Ark, and survived the flood because it is man's propensity to sin (disobey God) even righteous men disobey God in something, for no man can keep ALL of God's law. Which is the reason for Atonement for sin!

Now I understand that you will not believe that I glean all of that out of scripture, but I do! Unlike you, I am not shallow in my understanding of scriptures. I do not simply accept them at face value as you do.

 

Wes said:

Please explain how you "accept" them.

Thanks

&lt;&gt;&lt;
IHS,
cbc

 

Good question Corry,

I do not have a pat answer. However I do not accept them literally or blindly!

I accept them in the light of what is known about the audience, man, and what it being said to the audience and by whom it is being said. If something is not within the realm of man's known "ilities" to respond to, then it cannot be taken literally, it must be understood from a different perspective...the speaker's perspective or from the divine perspective, and one need not be divine to see things from divine perspective.

 

No, that would mean that I take ALL scripture literally....without exception!

 

Wes, conservative hermenutics take Scripture litterally MOST of the time, there are figures of speech and exagerations that are used from time to time, but this is not often the case.

Catholics do not interpret Scripture literally, that is why they have serious doctrinal issues. You calim to not take Scripture litterally. You have told me that you believe truth to be relative and not absolute. I can see why you are in the mess you are in, concering some of the most basic of doctrines, some of which Calvinists and Arminians even agree on.

 

I am not a Lemming, don't expect me to behave as one!

I do not run in herds like cattle, or in packs like wild dogs, or fly in flocks like ducks, nor do I sit in a pew listening to the ill-informed spew an inaccurate message and call it God's word. Been there, done that!

I go as the Holy Spirit leads me, and quite often that is perpendicular to, or even counter to, the "current winds of doctrine" that you are such a faithful adherent to. And, I test every spirit to see from whom it comes.

 

So you have a problem with authority and God ordained spiritual leadership too.

Tell me, how do you "test the spirit"? By applying your theological lens to it? Or by taking the Scripture for what it says?

 

Hello 4His_glory.

Tell me, how do you "test the spirit"?
He asks them!

john.