Did Christ die for Judas the traitor ?

[The Biblicist]

To hold to this is to ignore the clear present particple of the action (believes not), i.e. Faith.

That is my point! The continuance of unbelief began when they were born into this world and will continue as long as they have a unregenerated heart. Hence, Christ did not need to come into the world to condemn anyone because they were born "children of wrath" and "children of disobedience" even as others (Eph. 2:2-3).

 

[The Biblicist]

Judas was born into this world with an unbelieving heart and continued to the day of his death with an unbelieving heart:

Jn. 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Here is a clear and explicit statement by Christ from the very early point of his ministry that he realized that Judas was among those disciples who were false professors still in unbelief, some of which would leave him right then and there.

It is this connection from knowing from "THE BEGINNING" that Jesus went on to say:

John 6: 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

From "THE BEGINNING" when he chose Judas He knew he was in unbelief as some others were among his disicples and that long before the Lord's supper occurred he used the present tense "IS" to describe his condition in John 6 as a "devil."

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Hence, Christ did not need to come into the world to condemn anyone because they were born "children of wrath" and "children of disobedience" even as others (Eph. 2:2-3).

But the Elect were never born condemned for being by nature children of wrath as others, for God never charged them with their sins of nature as others

Also, the Elect were never children of disobedience, they were Children of wrath as others, which others would be the children of disobedience.

So your quote is false !

Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The children of disobedience are the non elect reprobate !

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Now being a child of wrath here is not the same thing as being under the wrath of God as in Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Because these which the Wrath of God abideth on, the sentence on them is that they shall not see Life, they will remain permanently under God's Wrath, No Salvation for them to obtain !

So being a child of wrath by nature in Eph 2:3 for the elect means their sinful walk when they are unregenerate, their life style only is meant, which life style makes them in themselves quite worthy of death !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



But the Elect were never born condemned for being by nature children of wrath as others, for God never charged them with their sins of nature as others!

Absolute hogwash and false doctrine and easy to show to anyone who has two cents of spiritual discernment.

1. The elect were born into this world in UNBELIEF and all in unbelief are condemned ALREADY:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Notice the present tense "IS" and the present tense "believeth." This is undeniable evidence that ALL who are CURRENTLY in unbelief are "condemned already" and that is precisely why the elect while in unbelief were called "children of wrath EVEN AS others".



2. The elect while they are in unbelief are regarded as without justification as justification is "BY FAITH."

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Both phrases "might be" are in the SUBJUNCTIVE mode not the indicative mode. The indicate makes an assertion of fact but the SUBJUNCTIVE is correctly translated "might be" showing PURPOSE.

1. The school master did its work first IN ORDER THAT "we might be" justified by faith or to fulfill that purpose. - Gal. 3:24

2. We "believed in Jesus Christ" first IN ORDER THAT "we might be" justified by faith.

Your doctrine is false and evidently so.

 

[webdog]

That is my point! The continuance of unbelief began when they were born into this world and will continue as long as they have a unregenerated heart. Hence, Christ did not need to come into the world to condemn anyone because they were born "children of wrath" and "children of disobedience" even as others (Eph. 2:2-3).

that says nothing of lack of atonement but the fact they remain in unbelief. Its quite simple...believe and be saved, do not and perish. People perish for not placing their faith in Christ.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Absolute hogwash and false doctrine

You reject the Truth and the merits of Christ's Death before God on the behalf of those He shed it for !

The elect were born into this world in UNBELIEF and all in unbelief are condemned ALREADY:

This statement is part true and part a lie, which makes it all a lie. The Elect are born in this world in unbelief, that is True, but they are not born into this world condemned already, that is a lie.

Even while the Elect are being enemies, in unbelief, they have been reconciled to God by the Death of God's Son ! Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

They had no sin imputed to their charge 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So how could they be condemned ? You are a false prophet Matt 24:24

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[The Biblicist]

Even while the Elect are being enemies, in unbelief, they have been reconciled to God by the Death of God's Son !

The present tense "IS" is found in verse 18 or can't you understand grammar??? TO BE in unbelief is TO BE condemned according to this text as it is the STATE of unbelief that is being condemned. The elect are born into the STATE of unbelief and TO BE in that state is TO BE under condemanation according to Christ - read the English!

 

[savedbymercy]

The present tense "IS" is found in verse 18 or can't you understand grammar??? TO BE in unbelief is TO BE condemned according to this text as it is the STATE of unbelief that is being condemned. The elect are born into the STATE of unbelief and TO BE in that state is TO BE under condemanation according to Christ - read the English!

The Greek does not help you here, in fact it condemns your unbelief in the Truth. For all for whom Christ died for, are born as sinners, but they are born as reconciled sinners to God, solely by the Death of Christ Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Paul is saying that while we were being enemies [present tense] we were reconciled [past tense] to God ! How ? Not by Faith, not by Quickening, Not By New Birth, Not by The Spirit's Application of Salvation, but solely by the Death of God's Son.

By your denial of this, you are a unbeliever in the Death of Christ ! For no one Christ died for is under condemnation by God at any time but indeed reconciled to God !

 

[The Biblicist]

The Greek does not help you here, in fact it condemns your unbelief in the Truth.

It is clear from my statement I am quoting Ephesians 2:8 when I spoke of the Greek grammar. I never even addressed the Greek in Romans 5:10.

You are simply lying as you have no idea what the Greek teaches or does not teach in Ephesians 2:8 and the phrase "saved through faith" and you know you are lying!

Prove I am wrong and tell the readers how the Greek in Ephesians 2:8 proves me wrong! Put up or shutup!

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

It is clear from my statement I am quoting Ephesians 2:8 when I spoke of the Greek grammar. I never even addressed the Greek in Romans 5:10.

It does not clear up anything, but that you reject the Truth and lie against the Accomplishment of Christ death, and deny that it alone, Reconciled , Justified before God all whom He died for, and they are born even as sinners by nature and enemies, not guilty before God and its impossible for them to be as these Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Those condemned unbelievers are not anyone Christ died for, sorry !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



It does not clear up anything, but that you reject the Truth and lie against the Accomplishment of Christ death, and deny that it alone,

All you do is lie! You cannot deal withe obvious present tense "is" and "believeth" in John 3:18 and so you lie! All liars go to hell according to God's word and every response you give is characteried by lying, deceiving, dishonesty!

Every text you use requires you to lie, decieve and be dishonest to defend YOUR intepretations.

Again, the present tense "is" and the present tense "believeth" demands that ALL who are in a present state of UNBELIEF are "condemned already" and that is precisely why they are called "children OF WRATH" and "children of DISOBEDENCE" EVEN AS OTHERS - Eph. 2:2-3. The subjuctive case in Galations "MIGHT BE Justified BY FAITH" repudidates your false teachings altogether and you have no other defesne but TO LIE, TO DECEIVE!

 

[OldRegular]

the bib



But the Elect were never born condemned for being by nature children of wrath as others, for God never charged them with their sins of nature as others

Also, the Elect were never children of disobedience, they were Children of wrath as others, which others would be the children of disobedience.

If the God never charged the elect with sins of nature or as children of disobedience why would they be under the wrath of God?

 

[OldRegular]

Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The children of disobedience are the non elect reprobate !

And what did you pull that belief from?

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Now being a child of wrath here is not the same thing as being under the wrath of God as in Jn 3:36

Just what is the basis for the above statement. Because you said it or because you pulled it out of something?

 

[OldRegular]

the bib



It does not clear up anything, but that you reject the Truth and lie against the Accomplishment of Christ death, and deny that it alone, Reconciled , Justified before God all whom He died for, and they are born even as sinners by nature and enemies, not guilty before God and its impossible for them to be as these Jn 3:18

If the above rambling is true and those who were born sinners by nature and were children of wrath are

not guilty before God

why was it necessary for jesus Christ to die. If they were not guilty, innocent, before God an atonement was unnecessary.

 

[savedbymercy]

If the God never charged the elect with sins of nature or as children of disobedience why would they be under the wrath of God?

They are not under the wrath of God ! The Elect while they are unsaved and enemies of God by Nature they have nevertheless been reconciled to God by the Death of His Son Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So you do not know what you are talking about !

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

All you do is lie!

Thats all you do, I am exposing it

Again, the present tense "is" and the present tense "believeth" demands that ALL who are in a present state of UNBELIEF are "condemned already"

Your conclusion is a lie,while the Elect are in unbelief, even enemies by Nature, they are already have been legally reconciled to God, no sin has been imputed to their charge liar !

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Jesus Christ did not die for Judas!

Not only did he indeed die for Judas, but for the whole creation, as Romans 8:18-23 affirms.

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib


Your conclusion is a lie,while the Elect are in unbelief, even enemies by Nature, they are already have been legally reconciled to God, no sin has been imputed to their charge liar !

Your doctrine is based upon PROOFTEXTING out of context. Every text you base your false doctrine upon is jerked out of context or you ignore the grammar and when you are confonted with your vile perversion of the scriptures and the evidence YOU SIMPLY IGNORE IT and act like a little parrot and simply reassert, repeat you false doctrines.

 

[savedbymercy]

Not only did he indeed die for Judas, but for the whole creation, as Romans 8:18-23 affirms.

Yes the whole Creation of the Elect ! That was the Only Creation Christ was the Head of !

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Your doctrine is based upon PROOFTEXTING out of context.

Thats your excuse for rejecting Truth. Nevertheless, the Elect cannot never be under condemnation at anytime, in faith or unbelief, for the condemnation of their sin and law breaking in adam and in them actually was never imputed or charged to them !