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did Christ die for the sin of unbelief?
- Thread starter massdak
- Start date
Y
Yelsew
Guest
I believe that I am but let’s make it simple. The reason many are not saved is their sin of unbelief. However, at the cross Christ has paid the penalty for all sins, past ,present and future for all mankind. Would that not include the sin of unbelief? Don’t you see that a penalty is being paid twice for that man’s sin of unbelief – once by Christ at the cross and another time by the man himself at the second death?
In His Grace
KayDee </font>[/QUOTE]I find no where in scripture that unbelief is a sin! It is instead a condition of faith, or the lack thereof. If one has no belief, or limited belief, one is in the condition of unbelief, not sin.
Unbelief is not a sin, but it is deadly because only the believer has everlasting life.
Whoa! Let me try to answer this one, too, simply point by point instead of doing the whole quote thingy!
1. I know that it is not mockery by Calvinist's definition. But you said to call someone who is incapable of responding is not mockery by God's definition. Would you care to support that statement with Scripture, please?
2. It is Calvinists who say man is unable to respond. I do not read anywhere in the Bible where man is unable to respond. In fact, what I read in the Bible are consistent pleas for man TO respond to God!
3. That unregenerate men do have a will seems to be something you are willing to concede. Now, what kind of 'will' is it that can operate when there are no REAL choices to be made? Does a fish swim because it wills/wants to swim, or because that is the only mode of locomotion available to it? If it is the only mode of locomotion available to it, then there is no choice involved and will has no meaning.
4. You cannot build a doctrine by using a verse out of context. If you check Eph. 4:19, a couple of verses later, you will find that these who have hardened their hearts have "lost all sensitivity," meaning that they must have originally had it to lose it. In addition, that verse also says they have 'given themselves over to sensuality', meaning that that is not where they were at first! So this section is NOT talking about the young adult or even the older questioning adult (both unregenerate in this discussion), but rather about those who have, as in Romans 1, consistently and insistently hardened their hearts. This is clearly not the condition they started with, as evidenced by this passage of your choice as well as a number of others.
5. "If the jailer was not one of the biblical elect, he would not have wanted to believe...." The circularity of Calvinism needs to stop. If he had not NEEDED to believe then Paul would not have told him to, and if he did not need to believe, being one of the foreordained elect, why would Paul TELL him to believe? The question remains, WHY would Paul tell him to believe IN ORDER to be saved if he was already saved????
6.
7. Where does Scripture say that a man cannot respond to/choose God, please?
8. Responding to God is not the same a trying to do works that please God. I did not contradict myself in discussing Romans 8. Quit twisting what I am saying, please.
9. Hebrews 11:6 also states that God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him! Jeremiah 19:13 states "And ye shall seek me and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Hebrews 11:6 also states that anyone who comes to God must believe that He exists. So we have at least a form of belief before coming to God, eh? At least, please keep the whole verse together, as well as in context!
10. In John 6:29 Jesus is pointing out that there is nothing they can do. The only "work" God requires is belief. This is not a work, as the Bible makes so distinctly clear. We are not saved by works, remember? So this cannot be a 'work'. But it is a requirement of God if one is to be saved. Believe. Just believe. Don't DO anything. Just believe. No magic words, no rites or rituals or performances or giving or anything else. Just believe.
11. To be born again IS the change of heart. This is when God changes the likes and dislikes, and not before. God does not force Himself on anyone. And what must one do to be born again? Nothing. Only believe. God gives someone that new life when they want it. They can't DO anything to get it.
12. I am not Arminian.
13. Man does not HAVE to be in control. God has GIVEN him the choice regarding his eternal destiny. God is sovereign enough to do this.
14. I know that people who don't come to God don't want to come. That was never the argument. The argument is whether or not they have ever had a REAL choice. I say they have. You deny that by saying they could not choose anything else. That is our point of disagreement.
15. If preaching is necessary so the elect might be saved, then God's foreordination needed help! Where is His sovereignty then? And why is the choice of God and HIS work not then sufficient without them? And if He chooses to use man's cooperation where salvation is concerned, then what is the big deal with giving man free choice in the matter anyway?!?
16. "The unsaved elect"???? How can the elect be unsaved? I am stunned that intelligent people can argue in such circles and do it with a straight face. I don't mean that to be insulting, but I am truly amazed.
17.
18. I'm not blowing right past anything you say. I am going line by line down your post in this little answer box.
19. Sure, 'come' is important. So I encourage them to go to Christ and not worry about being predestined to salvation, as that is nowhere in the Bible. What is in the Bible is the predestination of believers to be conformed to the image of Christ, and that is a different thing. Of course I tell them to go to Christ! He is the one who says "Come to me all ye that are burdened and heavy-laden." That basically includes just about every adult who has ever lived! And so I issue that invitation from Christ to them and tell them not to worry about any idea of Calvinists about being predestined to heaven or hell. You see, often, though, it is not themselves they are worried about, but people they love. And so I also assure them that God loves those people far more than they ever could and that God is and has done everything possible to invite these people to Himself without violating the very free will He gave them. This is all biblical.
20. Please, I guess you need to show me again where any verse or passage I have used has been 'twisted to fit' 'my' doctrine.
21. I have quoted Calvinists and I will be happy to quote Calvin himself on some of these matters if you like. I have the materials here now that I need. I know I am presenting Calvinism as it has been presented by Calvinists and also as it is being presented, in all its various forms, on this board.
22. I think you quoted me, not yourself, at the end of your post to me which I am responding to.
1. I know that it is not mockery by Calvinist's definition. But you said to call someone who is incapable of responding is not mockery by God's definition. Would you care to support that statement with Scripture, please?
2. It is Calvinists who say man is unable to respond. I do not read anywhere in the Bible where man is unable to respond. In fact, what I read in the Bible are consistent pleas for man TO respond to God!
3. That unregenerate men do have a will seems to be something you are willing to concede. Now, what kind of 'will' is it that can operate when there are no REAL choices to be made? Does a fish swim because it wills/wants to swim, or because that is the only mode of locomotion available to it? If it is the only mode of locomotion available to it, then there is no choice involved and will has no meaning.
4. You cannot build a doctrine by using a verse out of context. If you check Eph. 4:19, a couple of verses later, you will find that these who have hardened their hearts have "lost all sensitivity," meaning that they must have originally had it to lose it. In addition, that verse also says they have 'given themselves over to sensuality', meaning that that is not where they were at first! So this section is NOT talking about the young adult or even the older questioning adult (both unregenerate in this discussion), but rather about those who have, as in Romans 1, consistently and insistently hardened their hearts. This is clearly not the condition they started with, as evidenced by this passage of your choice as well as a number of others.
5. "If the jailer was not one of the biblical elect, he would not have wanted to believe...." The circularity of Calvinism needs to stop. If he had not NEEDED to believe then Paul would not have told him to, and if he did not need to believe, being one of the foreordained elect, why would Paul TELL him to believe? The question remains, WHY would Paul tell him to believe IN ORDER to be saved if he was already saved????
6.
7. Where does Scripture say that a man cannot respond to/choose God, please?
8. Responding to God is not the same a trying to do works that please God. I did not contradict myself in discussing Romans 8. Quit twisting what I am saying, please.
9. Hebrews 11:6 also states that God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him! Jeremiah 19:13 states "And ye shall seek me and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Hebrews 11:6 also states that anyone who comes to God must believe that He exists. So we have at least a form of belief before coming to God, eh? At least, please keep the whole verse together, as well as in context!
10. In John 6:29 Jesus is pointing out that there is nothing they can do. The only "work" God requires is belief. This is not a work, as the Bible makes so distinctly clear. We are not saved by works, remember? So this cannot be a 'work'. But it is a requirement of God if one is to be saved. Believe. Just believe. Don't DO anything. Just believe. No magic words, no rites or rituals or performances or giving or anything else. Just believe.
11. To be born again IS the change of heart. This is when God changes the likes and dislikes, and not before. God does not force Himself on anyone. And what must one do to be born again? Nothing. Only believe. God gives someone that new life when they want it. They can't DO anything to get it.
12. I am not Arminian.
13. Man does not HAVE to be in control. God has GIVEN him the choice regarding his eternal destiny. God is sovereign enough to do this.
14. I know that people who don't come to God don't want to come. That was never the argument. The argument is whether or not they have ever had a REAL choice. I say they have. You deny that by saying they could not choose anything else. That is our point of disagreement.
15. If preaching is necessary so the elect might be saved, then God's foreordination needed help! Where is His sovereignty then? And why is the choice of God and HIS work not then sufficient without them? And if He chooses to use man's cooperation where salvation is concerned, then what is the big deal with giving man free choice in the matter anyway?!?
16. "The unsaved elect"???? How can the elect be unsaved? I am stunned that intelligent people can argue in such circles and do it with a straight face. I don't mean that to be insulting, but I am truly amazed.
17.
Then you should correct their abberant theology and direct them to Scripture.</font>[/QUOTE]That is precisely what I do.
18. I'm not blowing right past anything you say. I am going line by line down your post in this little answer box.
19. Sure, 'come' is important. So I encourage them to go to Christ and not worry about being predestined to salvation, as that is nowhere in the Bible. What is in the Bible is the predestination of believers to be conformed to the image of Christ, and that is a different thing. Of course I tell them to go to Christ! He is the one who says "Come to me all ye that are burdened and heavy-laden." That basically includes just about every adult who has ever lived! And so I issue that invitation from Christ to them and tell them not to worry about any idea of Calvinists about being predestined to heaven or hell. You see, often, though, it is not themselves they are worried about, but people they love. And so I also assure them that God loves those people far more than they ever could and that God is and has done everything possible to invite these people to Himself without violating the very free will He gave them. This is all biblical.
20. Please, I guess you need to show me again where any verse or passage I have used has been 'twisted to fit' 'my' doctrine.
21. I have quoted Calvinists and I will be happy to quote Calvin himself on some of these matters if you like. I have the materials here now that I need. I know I am presenting Calvinism as it has been presented by Calvinists and also as it is being presented, in all its various forms, on this board.
22. I think you quoted me, not yourself, at the end of your post to me which I am responding to.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
If one does not believe in The LORD, How is that a sin? Is it listed among the sins?
Let's take this a bit further, ALL sins are works or deeds, All deeds are tested or Judged as if in fire. Only that which survives a fire has any "value to Jesus" at whose feet, we lay our fire tested values. The person who did the deeds comes through it as if experiencing the devastation of the fire. Deeds which were sins are consumed in the manner of wood, hay and stubble. Good works, come through the fire as if gold, silver, and precious stones. Now how does belief or unbelief fit that scenario? Belief is tested by a form of fire called persecution while the person lives this natural life. Deeds are tested after passing from this life into the next.
Finally, the Judgment in Revelation 20:15 is of unbelievers only. John 3:18, Jesus said that believers are not judged, because by belief in Jesus they are sanctified; but that unbelievers are judged by their unbelief, not by their deeds or sins. So belief and unbelief are conditions of the faith of man that determines man's eternal life or eternal death.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Does that mean you may want to change your opinion? Let's ask, Do you see unbelief as a sin?
I don't know. I don't think it makes any difference, really.
But my point is that I answered your post. You asked "did Christ die for the sin of unbelief?" and "if i could get a yes or no answer from an arminian let me pose it this way did Christ die for the sin of unbelief for every person ever born?" and I answered (assuming unbelief is a sin):
The answer to both your questions is "yes". However, like all sin, the sin of unbelief is not forgiven until it is repented of.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
You don't need to be ambivilent
Seems you do believe that unbelief is a sin among all sins.
Let's let scripture speak:
8“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.
My question from my last post still stands.
In His Grace
KayDee
8“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.
My question from my last post still stands.
In His Grace
KayDee
Y
Yelsew
Guest
This does not prove your point. This scripture is stating who will, at the final judgement, be cast into the lake of fire. I have clearly stated that between believers and unbelievers, ONLY the unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire. Again the judgment of unbelievers is strictly upon the basis of ones faith condition.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
sorry miss post!
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Then I did show you where it was listed among sins, Rev 21:8, and then you say, "this does not prove my point." You are not making sense at all.
In His Grace
KayDee </font>[/QUOTE]Here's why,
This list is not a list of sins but the categories of man that results in them being cast into the lake of fire. It is these who commit sins, because they will not seek forgiveness for sin...They have no faith in God, but are "gods unto themselves". You will notice in verse 7 that there are a different category of men who will be spared from the lake of fire. These are believers.
You see KayDee, this scripture speaks of people and not the deeds of people either good works or sins. I hope this clears up any confusion you may have in this regard.