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did each man ever had the ability? - no! - how?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Aki, Mar 3, 2003.

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  1. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Here's where you and I would disagree, Aki. I think God set it up so that Adam would represent us, and what happened to Adam, happened to us. It is true that we didn't choose Adam to represent us, but I also think it is true that Adam perfectly represented each one of us--Adam did exactly what we would have done in the same situation. If you or I had been there in the garden, we would have made the same sinful choice Adam did, so none of us can really say, "I would have done better than Adam, so it's unfair that I suffer the consequences of his choice." We come by our sin nature justly, and we are all justly responsible for the things that we do as a result of that sin nature.

    [ March 12, 2003, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
    #41 russell55, Mar 12, 2003
  2. Aki

    Aki Member

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    i am actually aware of your point, russell55.

    true, Adam represented us, but it is actually the reason why the sin nature was transmitted to us even without our fault. true again, and i affirm, that we would have done the same should we have been in Adam's place. however, having the fact that we would have done the same does not bring us to the point that we have done it ourselves. it (the sin nature) was still transmitted upon us

    and true, we are justly responsible for the product that our sin nature produces. but the point is that the sin nature was transmitted to us. it's the one that got us unable to respond to God. thus, we come to be dead and unable to respond by transmission. yes, again we would have committed the sin of Adam if we're in his place, yet the choice to get to that state of having the sin nature and inablity to respond to God was not given.

    with choice, we would have done the same as Adam. but that idea does not get us to have done what Adam did. worse, we had no choice for getting the sin nature and inability to respond to God. that makes the non-elects victims of representation.

    with your approach, the non-elects had no choice but to be born with sin nature, and that they also had no choice but to reject God's general call. thus, and again, they are victims.
     
    #42 Aki, Mar 12, 2003
  3. William C

    William C New Member

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    Russell55,

    This is what I don't get. Please help me to understand.

    It seems that scripture never teaches men are born totally unable, just totally sinful. In there sinful nature they follow the lusts of their flesh and the evil intent of their hearts and their conscience becomes defiled through that process. It seems to me that people are not born "totally depraved" but they become "total depraved" if they go unchecked in their sinfulness.

    Like a criminal starts out as a decent member of society, though they may have inward evil intents they are still a law abiding citizen, they may commit a small crime, then another and another, they get worse and worse, eventually the system calls them a "hardened criminal" or incorriagable. Are they born "hardened criminals," No. They hadn't broken the law. They only become "hardened" after living in the criminal life for a long period of time.

    Now, look at Romans 1. Do these people start off depraved. No. Sinful, yes, depraved, no. They begin to live in sin and abide in it and slowly come to the point where God "gives them over to the lusts of their flesh." Notice it says, "gives them over." What does that mean? It means He stops trying with them, they are incorragable, hardened in a since.

    "Total depravity" describes what a person's negative potential would be if left unaffected by God. But God didn't leave this world "unaffected." He sent Christ, the apostles, the scripture, the working of the Holy Spirit, and us to have an affect on people lives. Why do you think that 85% of those who give their lives to Christ do so before they turn 18 years old? It's because their conscience hasn't been completely defiled, they haven't become hardened in their sin and rebellion. They are sinners, no doubt, but if you've ever been around young people you would know they are much more open and willing to hear and believe than adults. Why do you think that the scripture can make the promise that if you raise a child in the way they should go they will never depart from it?

    Unchecked sin will most definitately lead to hardened hearts and what Calvinist's call "total depravity" or "total inability." (Though I do believe its always possible for a hard heart to be broken unless they are being actively hardened by God for a specific purpose ie Pharoah or the Israelites)

    How do you respond to this. Thanks.
     
    #43 William C, Mar 12, 2003
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