Oh, my bad. God translated him, doesn't necessarily mean immortally, so maybe God buried him, somewhere? Don't know.
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Did Elijah go to Heavaen or Paradise
- Thread starter Salty
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Oh, my bad. God translated him, doesn't necessarily mean immortally, so maybe God buried him, somewhere? Don't know.
beameup
Member
Thanks for looking it up for me, I knew God buried him.
Here is an interesting verse:
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. - Mt 22:32
One might ask: where is hades? or gehennah?, or Tartarus?
Or one might ask: where is the bosom of Abraham?, or where is Paradise?
It would appear from the scriptures that God has not revealed everything to us. Only a scoffer would not already know this.
I would only conjecture that there are DIMENSIONS outside our own 3 space + time.
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
such an one caught up to the third heaven. - 2 Cor 12:2 [Paul speaking in the third person].
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I have to admit, the fact that such incidents as these are more understandable in the context of the ancient view of the cosmos, has caused some concern for me in the last few years (and I say this speaking as a Christian). Iow, back then, heaven was envisioned as being "up there" somewhere. The Jesus Seminar professor, "Spong", on that emergent website mentioned here a few days ago, brought that up, when running down the Scripture in his homespun condescending way.
But I as well had started to think about it. Many years ago I saw someone remark on a board - Did Jesus lungs collapse when he reached a certain altitude - and at the time, it struck me as an absurd observation.
But of late, I wonder how surprised the gospel writers would be that above a certain altitude no human life could survive due to the extreme cold and lack of oxygen, and more pertinent, above a certain altitude there was nothing but empty space for millions of light years.
Of course, they thought that Jesus and Elijah just kept right on rising until arriving in the ethereal domain of God himself. Is that what we think - that Jesus and Elijah just kept traversing empty space for light years after reaching the edge of earth's atmosphere? They evidently would have to pick up speed by an astronomical amount.
I was able to eventually reconcile part of this picture - in thinking about Christ's return in the clouds, and what that accomplishes, I can compare it to Christ's triumphal entry at Jerusalem - it will be the same sort of inaugural celebration. Maybe Elijah leaving the earth that way was in like manner an homage to him by God - not strictly necessary - but for the benefit of the human onlookers there. That brings up the question though, what happened to Elijah eventually - did he disappear and enter the spiritual realm or what.
Some of the theologians on this forum - GL Frederick, etc. should chime in here - help us all deal with this.
But I as well had started to think about it. Many years ago I saw someone remark on a board - Did Jesus lungs collapse when he reached a certain altitude - and at the time, it struck me as an absurd observation.
But of late, I wonder how surprised the gospel writers would be that above a certain altitude no human life could survive due to the extreme cold and lack of oxygen, and more pertinent, above a certain altitude there was nothing but empty space for millions of light years.
Of course, they thought that Jesus and Elijah just kept right on rising until arriving in the ethereal domain of God himself. Is that what we think - that Jesus and Elijah just kept traversing empty space for light years after reaching the edge of earth's atmosphere? They evidently would have to pick up speed by an astronomical amount.
I was able to eventually reconcile part of this picture - in thinking about Christ's return in the clouds, and what that accomplishes, I can compare it to Christ's triumphal entry at Jerusalem - it will be the same sort of inaugural celebration. Maybe Elijah leaving the earth that way was in like manner an homage to him by God - not strictly necessary - but for the benefit of the human onlookers there. That brings up the question though, what happened to Elijah eventually - did he disappear and enter the spiritual realm or what.
Some of the theologians on this forum - GL Frederick, etc. should chime in here - help us all deal with this.
I tend to view the Transfiguration as a vision of the future, or perhaps rather, Moses and Elijah travelling back in time from some future age after the resurrection to join Christ there on the Mount of Olives. Or perhaps the disciples transported momentarily into the future, into this timeless dimension where Christ, Elijah and Moses are, but spatially taking place there on the Mount of Olives. I assume that even our own future selves are able to watch us right now, from whatever timeless dimension they resurrected into, even though in a temporal sense they are still possibly dead and in their graves at the present time (if that makes sense - conjecture on my part.)
And what is real interesting about that verse is it preceded by the statement of, as touching the resurrection of the dead. Jesus was speaking to people who said there is not a resurrection from the dead.
They will be living after they are resurrected from the dead.
Did Christ die for us?
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Clearly a visible ascent into "heaven" only refers to a physical ascent into the atmosphere until the thing ascending disappears from view. With a God created cloud cover, that could be only several hundred feet up, still an environment why a physical being could breath, like a man in a hot air balloon.
Once the "vision" was finished, i.e. the person was out of sight, then God could take the person, i.e. transport his spirit to Abraham's bosom, and vaporize his physical body.
Next, say the spirits of Moses and Elijah could be transported from Abraham's bosom, given a visible body of sorts, i.e. whatever was visible at the transfiguration, and then when that "vision" was completed, their spirits again could be returned to Abraham's bosom.
And finally, after Christ died, Christ took all the believers in Abraham's bosom to Paradise, the third heaven along with the thief. Now, any born again believer who dies goes (his spirit only) to the third heaven and is present with Christ immediately. At the second coming, our spirits will be united with our glorified bodies and we will meet Christ in the air.
Once the "vision" was finished, i.e. the person was out of sight, then God could take the person, i.e. transport his spirit to Abraham's bosom, and vaporize his physical body.
Next, say the spirits of Moses and Elijah could be transported from Abraham's bosom, given a visible body of sorts, i.e. whatever was visible at the transfiguration, and then when that "vision" was completed, their spirits again could be returned to Abraham's bosom.
And finally, after Christ died, Christ took all the believers in Abraham's bosom to Paradise, the third heaven along with the thief. Now, any born again believer who dies goes (his spirit only) to the third heaven and is present with Christ immediately. At the second coming, our spirits will be united with our glorified bodies and we will meet Christ in the air.
You are correct. The eschatalogical science fiction holding place known as "Abraham's Bosom" is an invention of man.
So Jesus taught an invention of men?
Luke 16: 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
No, He used much figurative language. And He was telling a parable (or story, scholars debate this)...to Jews...some of which did not believe in the resurrection. You disagree?
The point was the two places according to Jesus were in the same place at the time with a great gulf fixed between them. True story or parable the point was Jesus made it clear what was in place at the time.
I think you are reading too much into the story. If by the "same place" you mean heaven and hell, or the inaccessible place humans can go while alive, I would agree...but they are not in the same place, as evidenced by the great gulf fixed between them.
If there was some holding cell for the righteous, there would have been some holding cell for the unrighteous.
There is a holding cell for the unrighteous and they are there now as they were in Christ time it is called hell. At the Great White Throne it says all of them will be cast into the Lake of Fire forever.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
It appears death and "hell" give up the dead that would be thsoe souls temporarily housed in torments of which the rich man was one. So torments is a holding cell unto the Great White Throne judgement takes place at which time the souls in hell will be transfered with their body into the Lake of Fire.
...but this is the same place pre and post resurrection for both. The ultimate destiny of both will change upon the return of Christ.
That is where you miss it evidently Christ closed of Paradise because notice what Paul says, in 1 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
We are absent from the Body as believers and present with the Lord. Where is the Lord? Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Stephen saw the Lord in Heaven and was going to be with Him, so the holding cell of Paradise, the Bosom of Abraham must have been changed.
Ephesians 4 gives us the key to seeing what took place.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
He descended into Paradise, Luke 23:Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise
Paradise was in Hades for we are told in Ephesians Christ first descended.
Paaul tells us where paradise is in 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter
Before Christ died and paid for our sins it seems Paradise was in the earth but after His ressurection and ascension it changed. At the Great White Throne those in torments will be removed body and soul joined and cast into the Lake of Fire forever. They are still thier holding cell the believers O.T. are now in heaven with the Lord.
That is where you miss it evidently Christ closed of Paradise because notice what Paul says, in 1 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
We are absent from the Body as believers and present with the Lord. Where is the Lord? Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Stephen saw the Lord in Heaven and was going to be with Him, so the holding cell of Paradise, the Bosom of Abraham must have been changed.
Ephesians 4 gives us the key to seeing what took place.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
He descended into Paradise, Luke 23:Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise
Paradise was in Hades for we are told in Ephesians Christ first descended.
Paaul tells us where paradise is in 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter
Before Christ died and paid for our sins it seems Paradise was in the earth but after His ressurection and ascension it changed. At the Great White Throne those in torments will be removed body and soul joined and cast into the Lake of Fire forever. They are still thier holding cell the believers O.T. are now in heaven with the Lord.
YLT 2Cor5:1 For we have known that if our earthly house of the tabernacle may be thrown down,(< Is that speaking of the body we are home in while we are absent from the Lord spoken of in verse 6?) a building from God we have, an house not made with hands -- age-during -- in the heavens, (< What house is this speaking of and just when do we put it on?) If we do not have on that house not made with hands, would we be construed as naked and did Paul say we do not want to be found naked? Do you not think that groaning in verse 2 is the very same groaning spoken of in Romans 8:22,23?
This house from heaven that we shall be clothed upon with, in verse 2 and 4 where mortality (that subject to death) might be swallowed up of life, is that not the very same putting on of immortality spoken of in V54 of 1Cor15 where it also says death (that which had been mortal) is swallowed up in victory (Given life)?
1 Thess4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: (< Is this when we receive that house not made with hands? And then >) and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place ( < a house not made with hands) for you, I will come again, ( < clothe and/or put on you, your house from heaven > and receive you unto myself; that where I am, ye may be also.
BTW that is when Enoch and Elijah will also receive their house from heaven and Enoch having been translated into a covenant relationship to God just as have the elect, will not see the second death?
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. And after six days (I do not think any of them died in those six days.) Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Abraham's bosom was the temporary holding cell for the OT saints. Those that claim that is not true must not only nullify Christ's words in Luke 16:19-30, but also John 3:13 where Jesus says no one had gone to heaven.
Just like "through the transgression of the one, the many were made sinners" is nullified by some, so is Abraham's bosom by others. But for those who believe what the Bible actually says, we have Luke, John and Hebrews (11:39-40) teaching the OT saints did not immediately receive the promise.
OTOH, others seem to claim "paradise" is not the "third heaven" nullifying Paul's account (2 Corinthians 12:2-3). But you will note they are a tad shy when it comes to specific references to scripture.
Just like "through the transgression of the one, the many were made sinners" is nullified by some, so is Abraham's bosom by others. But for those who believe what the Bible actually says, we have Luke, John and Hebrews (11:39-40) teaching the OT saints did not immediately receive the promise.
OTOH, others seem to claim "paradise" is not the "third heaven" nullifying Paul's account (2 Corinthians 12:2-3). But you will note they are a tad shy when it comes to specific references to scripture.
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1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Is that in bold a place or a covenant relationship of one who died as the elect of God?
From Wikipedia-Abraham's bosom
While commentators generally agree upon the meaning of the "Bosom of Abraham", they disagree about its origins. Up to the time of Maldonatus (A.D. 1583), its origin was traced back[citation needed] to the universal custom of parents to take up into their arms, or place upon their knees, their children when they are fatigued, or return home, and to make them rest by their side during the night (cf. 2 Samuel 12:3;[4] 1 Kings 3:20; 17:19; Luke 11:7 sqq.), thus causing them to enjoy rest and security in the bosom of a loving parent. After the same manner was Abraham supposed to act towards his children after the fatigues and troubles of the present life, hence the metaphorical expression "to be in Abraham's Bosom" as meaning to be in repose and happiness with him.[citation needed]
Abraham died in faith and at the writing of Hebrews was still dead in faith. Was in faith a place or the condition in which he died?
Carried into the bosom of the Abraham. Does that sound like a place or a condition relative to another?
What biblical right do we even have to say Paradise and Abraham's Bosom would be the same place? I'll answer none to my knowledge except to formulate something in our own minds.
Luke 16: 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
If Jesus said as we see in verse 22 that the beggar (Lazarus) died and was carried into Abraham's Bosom and then tells the thief on the cross that this day you will be with me in Paradise, then you see two seperate places.
Ephesians 4 gives us the key to seeing what took place.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Ephsians 4:9 makes it clear Christ descnded first to go to Paradise.
He descended into Paradise, Luke 23:Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise
Paradise was in Hades for we are told in Ephesians Christ first descended.
Paul tells us where paradise is in 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter
So Abraham's Bosom and Paradise are they the same and are they now in heaven as Paul taught in 2 Corthians 12:4 or was Paul misinformed and did the Holy Spirit allow the writers to place untruth in the word of God?
Ephesians 4:9 does not say that Jesus went to paradise then someplace else called something else. It says Jesus came down from heaven to earth and then ascended back to heaven. Now it is possible the actual meaning of the lower parts of earth refers not to earth's position below heaven, but some region thought to be within the earth, i.e. Hades or Abraham's bosom. But to claim Paradise is located in the lower regions of earth is beyond reason, without a shred of biblical support. Paul makes clear that Paradise is the third heaven and thus can only be thought of as up from earth, not down.
To be asleep in Jesus is to be a born again believer who physically died before Christ's return. Thus a location based on a relationship. Jesus is in the third heaven/paradise right now and everyone in Christ is therefore in some way also in heaven right now. Those who have died in Christ are immediately in the presence of our Lord, thus to be asleep in Jesus is to be present with the Lord.