Did Elijah go to Heavaen or Paradise

[percho]

To be asleep in Jesus is to be a born again believer who physically died before Christ's return. Thus a location based on a relationship. Jesus is in the third heaven/paradise right now and everyone in Christ is therefore in some way also in heaven right now. Those who have died in Christ are immediately in the presence of our Lord, thus to be asleep in Jesus is to be present with the Lord.

And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
O death, where thy sting? O Hades, where thy victory?

From whence is the church Jesus built resurrected from, into the kingdom of God?

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.

What does, "from the dead," mean here? What is the relevance of, "from the dead," to, "firstborn"?

Show me from scripture where anyone is said to be born into the church, the body of Christ.

 

[percho]

Luke 16: 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

If Jesus said as we see in verse 22 that the beggar (Lazarus) died and was carried into Abraham's Bosom and then tells the thief on the cross that this day you will be with me in Paradise, then you see two seperate places.

Ephesians 4 gives us the key to seeing what took place.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


Ephsians 4:9 makes it clear Christ descnded first to go to Paradise.
He descended into Paradise, Luke 23:Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise
Paradise was in Hades for we are told in Ephesians Christ first descended.
Paul tells us where paradise is in 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter

So Abraham's Bosom and Paradise are they the same and are they now in heaven as Paul taught in 2 Corthians 12:4 or was Paul misinformed and did the Holy Spirit allow the writers to place untruth in the word of God?

Van is correct in post 39, that is not the meaning of Eph. 4:9

The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. Do you think that, "came down," descended there has the same meaning as Jesus saying in Matt. 12:40 (For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.), the Son of Man would be in the heart of the earth? Being the earth is basically a terrestrial ball, metaphorically would the heart of the earth not be the lowest parts of the earth?

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. till the seed should come to whom the promise was made

Was Jesus the Christ really an heir of God, which the word says he was? An heir as in to inherit something he did not possess? Why would the Christ be made a promise of inheriting something, see Gal. 3:18?

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Did that statement inspired by the Spirit of God not apply to Jesus the Christ?
Was he not flesh and blood subject to corruption see Acts 13:34? Was he not resurrected from the dead no more to return to corruption in that he was given the sure mercies of David? Are we joint-heirs of the kingdom of God with Christ? Just what went on in the heart of the earth, the lowest parts of the earth those three days and three nights?

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; (<through death)

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; (How? Corruptible flesh and blood, but he received the sure mercies of David.)

David was once again writing about the Christ of his loins the only begotten of the Father, just as here. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

BTW Christ didn't go anywhere and preach to anyone those three days and three nights. He was dead and his spirit (life) was in the hands of his Father.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And just as Jesus told him that day, he will be with him in paradise but it will be after, in a moment in the twinkling of and eye at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

When we become joint inheritors of the kingdom of God with Christ.

 

[revmwc]

Ephesians 4:9 does not say that Jesus went to paradise then someplace else called something else. It says Jesus came down from heaven to earth and then ascended back to heaven. Now it is possible the actual meaning of the lower parts of earth refers not to earth's position below heaven, but some region thought to be within the earth, i.e. Hades or Abraham's bosom. But to claim Paradise is located in the lower regions of earth is beyond reason, without a shred of biblical support. Paul makes clear that Paradise is the third heaven and thus can only be thought of as up from earth, not down.

Ephesians 4 gives us the key to seeing what took place.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Form interlinear greek to English.
verse 9
THE YET He-UP-STEPPed ANY IS IF NO that AND He-DOWNSEPPed BEFORE-most INTO THE DOWN-more PARTS OF-THE LAND

Virtually like this THE YET he-ascended what? it-is IF NO that also he-descended first INTO THE lower PARTS OF-THE earth.

Christ it says went into the down-more (lower) parts of the earth. When did He do this? Well He told the Thief today thou wilt be with me in Paradise.


10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


Ephsians 4:9 makes it clear Christ descended first into the lower parts of the earth. Sounds like Paul made it real clear it wasn't just to the earth but to the lower parts of the earth, notice it is of the earth not just to the earth.


He descended into Paradise, Luke 23:Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise
Paradise was in Hades for we are told in Ephesians Christ first descended.
Paul tells us where paradise is in 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Notice what Jesus taught about where the soul went during His time on earth,

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Seems those in torments could see those in Araham's Bosom (Paradise) which evidently was in the lower parts of the earth or in heaven? So where do you see torments as being? A part of heaven? Peter said Christ preached to the Spirits in Prison
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Notice verse 19 He went and preached verse 18 says After He hath once suffered for sins, so time in the period after His physical death He preached to those in Prison.

Let's see what we have here:
1. Jesus told the malfactor this day will thou be with me in Paradise.
2. Paul says He descended into he "DOWN-more PARTS OF-THE LAND"
3. Peter says Jesus preached to the spirits in Prison, from Noah's day. Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Could this be those in prison? Some believe it is and they are currently in the bottomless pit or tartarus the third abode of Hades.
4. Paul says paradise is now in heaven and that the soul of believers go their upon the believer falling asleep physically, that is physical death, absent from the body present with the Lord Paul says.

So during Pre-Ascension time soulswent to hades, eatheir the paradise abode aka Abraham's bosom or to torments. Christ died and went to the lower parts of the earth scripture says, but Paul says Paradise is in Heaven in his time so when did the change take place? Somewhere between His death and ascension possibly?

 

[percho]

Notice what Jesus taught about where the soul went during His time on earth,

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Seems those in torments could see those in Araham's Bosom (Paradise) which evidently was in the lower parts of the earth or in heaven? So where do you see torments as being? A part of heaven?

Let's look at Luke 16. This story actually begins with verse 16 "The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." and is speaking of who will be in the kingdom of God, the gospel of Jesus Christ.

God by the old covenant was married to the children of Israel but he had given a bill of divorce to the house of Israel and yet the house of Judah seeing this continued in their sins but it is never said God gave her a bill of divorce. The rich man in the story is Judah. Lazarus is the Gentile servant of Abraham. Judah's five natural brothers were a part of the house of Israel and were scattered among the Gentiles and considered Gentiles. Thus who will be in the kingdom of God? But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

about where the soul went

For we know that if our earthly house of tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life

Here we see the soul, in a house subject to destruction/corruption.
We see the soul naked, in which we do not want to be found.
We see the soul in a house from heaven which when the soul is clothed with, is considered swallowed up of life. Life comes with the house from heaven. until then the soul is dead.

Luke 16 we have two men one died and was buried. A dead soul.
The other died and is carried unto the bosom of the Abraham. Well just where is the soul Abraham? Abraham is dead in faith not having received any promises.

Luke 16:30,31 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

In Hades the rich man lifted up his eyes in torments, seeing, the tip of his finger, to cool my tongue. This man is being resurrected in a body still subject to the judgement of the lake of fire, at his feet in total amazement for he can see across the gulf of life Lazarus with Father Abraham.

That is where the soul went until: I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[Van]

Hi Revmwc,

Your post #43 demonstrates the lack of evidence for your view. Paul ascended into Paradise and into the third heaven. Therefore Paradise is in heaven.

I agree Ephesians 4:9 suggests Jesus went into a lower region of the earth, hence Hades or Abraham's bosom.

But Luke 23:43 does not say Jesus decended to Paradise, rather it says Jesus went that very day to Paradise and does not address if He also went to Hades or Abraham's bosom or any other place. Thus your logic is flawed, demonstating Jesus went to Paradise and Jesus went into the lower regions does not connect the two actions.

Next you attempt to say Abraham's bosom is Paradise, but you have no verse to support this claim. If I fly to Springfield via Dallas, that does not demonstrate Springfield and Dallas are the same city.

Next scripture does suggest Jesus preached to those in prison, but that could refer to those held in Abraham's bosom, located in the lower regions of the earth.

Jude 1:6 is non-germane, those angels are in eternal chains and therefore Jesus did not lead them out of their prison.

But we agree that Paradise is in heaven and those who physically die before the Lord's second coming go to the Paradise of God.

 

[percho]

Hi Revmwc,

Your post #43 demonstrates the lack of evidence for your view. Paul ascended into Paradise and into the third heaven. Therefore Paradise is in heaven.

I agree Ephesians 4:9 suggests Jesus went into a lower region of the earth, hence Hades or Abraham's bosom.

But Luke 23:43 does not say Jesus decended to Paradise, rather it says Jesus went that very day to Paradise and does not address if He also went to Hades or Abraham's bosom or any other place. Thus your logic is flawed, demonstating Jesus went to Paradise and Jesus went into the lower regions does not connect the two actions.

Next you attempt to say Abraham's bosom is Paradise, but you have no verse to support this claim. If I fly to Springfield via Dallas, that does not demonstrate Springfield and Dallas are the same city.

Next scripture does suggest Jesus preached to those in prison, but that could refer to those held in Abraham's bosom, located in the lower regions of the earth.

Jude 1:6 is non-germane, those angels are in eternal chains and therefore Jesus did not lead them out of their prison.

But we agree that Paradise is in heaven and those who physically die before the Lord's second coming go to the Paradise of God.

Van would you address this?

about where the soul went

For we know that if our earthly house of tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life

Here we see the soul, in a house subject to destruction/corruption.
We see the soul naked, in which we do not want to be found.
We see the soul in a house from heaven which when the soul is clothed with, is considered swallowed up of life. Life comes with the house from heaven. until then the soul is dead.

Plus two other question.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; {Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades,} that in all he might have the preeminence.

Has any other man who has ever lived experienced that above in either or both passages?

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Is it not the absolute truth that when he appears, we will be resurrect from the dead in his resurrected image making him the firstborn of many?

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so (By resurrection) them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[percho]

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of (THE) Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades,

The soul Jesus the Christ, Who had commended his spirit into the hands of the Father was put to death in the flesh and three days and three nights later the soul Jesus the Christ was quickened, made alive, resurrected, regenerated, by the Spirit. Neither did his flesh see corruption for it too was quickened by the spirit.

These words of this verse are speaking of Jesus the Christ. The following is the grace of God through (because of) the faith of Jesus that made it possible for man to be saved.

by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;

This Jesus hath God raised up, Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit,

 

[Van]

Hi Percho, lets look at 2 Corinthians 5:1-3 (HCSB):

1 For we know that if our temporary, earthly dwelling is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal dwelling in the heavens, not made with hands. 2 Indeed, we groan in this body, desiring to put on our dwelling from heaven, 3 since, when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.

My understanding is as follows:

1) our earthly tent or temporary dwelling is our fleshly body. If you will our human spirit, our soul, dwells in our physical body.

2) when we physically die "in Christ" our human spirit/soul goes to be present with Jesus in the third heaven, the Paradise of God.

3) At Christ's second coming, our spirit/soul will be united with our glorified body and we will meet Jesus in the air.

Therefore I believe we are all desiring to be clothed with our eternal glorified permanent dwelling, our resurrected glorified body which will occur at Christ's second coming. And of course, being clothed means we are saved, and being found naked means were not "in Christ" and therefore we face the second death.

As far as your other questions, Acts 2:31does address Christ's Spirit not being left in Hades, and it addresses that David said Christ's body would not be left to decay in the grave. David's body did decay in the grave, but Christ walked away from His tomb and left it empty! No one else, before Him, had been raised permanently from the grave, thus He is the firstborn of those raised to eternal life.

Yes it is absolutely true at Christ's second coming, all born again believers will be resurrected in glorified bodies in the image of Christ, making Him the first born of many brothers.

 

[percho]

Hi Percho, lets look at 2 Corinthians 5:1-3 (HCSB):

1 For we know that if our temporary, earthly dwelling is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal dwelling in the heavens, not made with hands. 2 Indeed, we groan in this body, desiring to put on our dwelling from heaven, 3 since, when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.

My understanding is as follows:

1) our earthly tent or temporary dwelling is our fleshly body. If you will our human spirit, our soul, dwells in our physical body.

2) when we physically die "in Christ" our human spirit/soul goes to be present with Jesus in the third heaven, the Paradise of God.

3) At Christ's second coming, our spirit/soul will be united with our glorified body and we will meet Jesus in the air.

Therefore I believe we are all desiring to be clothed with our eternal glorified permanent dwelling, our resurrected glorified body which will occur at Christ's second coming. And of course, being clothed means we are saved, and being found naked means were not "in Christ" and therefore we face the second death.

As far as your other questions, Acts 2:31does address Christ's Spirit not being left in Hades, and it addresses that David said Christ's body would not be left to decay in the grave. David's body did decay in the grave, but Christ walked away from His tomb and left it empty! No one else, before Him, had been raised permanently from the grave, thus He is the firstborn of those raised to eternal life.

Yes it is absolutely true at Christ's second coming, all born again believers will be resurrected in glorified bodies in the image of Christ, making Him the first born of many brothers.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him;

until the ninth hour. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:

Well it looks like the spirit of Jesus returned to God the Father who gave it.

he gave up the ghost.
breathe one's last, expire--- Jesus died

The body of Jesus.
Joseph of Arimathaea, had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

The soul of Jesus.
spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell,


I do not know what the spirit/soul is. Are you saying they are the same?

Can a person be a person without the presence of body, spirit, soul simultaneously?