Did Eve lie?

[just-want-peace]

It's just an opinion, a thought--nothing more. Accept or reject it; it's not worth arguing about.

An excellent attitude - wish it were more prevalent!!

 

[Winman]

I think people understand what you are saying, but you are applying modern legal definitions to biblical concepts and the 2 don't necessarily work together.

To apply what happened to Adam and at Eve at the time of the fall to me deciding to rob a bank is very much apples and oranges. You are taking as your default position that I am still innocent now. I disagree and the Bible says that what Adam and Eve did was very much different from my choosing to sin. It was Adam's sin by which sin entered the world (the human race). My sin does not make sin enter the world.

Everything was different once they sinned.
(1) Death entered the world
(2) sin entered the world
(3) their relationship with God was destroyed.
(4) they began to blame each other
(5) They sewed up clothes to hide, something they never had thought of doing prior to their sin.

And because Adam was, what theologioans call, our federated head (our representative) when he fell, we also fell.

Most of us understand what you are saying. We just believe the Bible contradicts what you are saying.

No, I am speaking of ability or potential. What I am saying is this, if on Monday I have never committed a crime, I am not a criminal (legally), but if on Tuesday I rob a bank I am now a felon (legally).

But how am I morally different? Did I not have the ability and potential to rob the bank on Monday?

And I think this is what Jesus was pointing out to people.

Matt 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus was saying that just because you haven't literally committed adultery, that does not mean you are not an adulterer. We have that in our hearts, the ability and potential is there. We are already evil before we actually commit the evil act.

Does that make sense?

And so with Adam and Eve, they must have already had the ability and potential to sin or they would not have been able to do so.

Now this is hypothetical, but couldn't Adam have lied before this? What if he got angry at Eve and killed her? Did he have this potential? Or do you believe the only sin he was capable of was breaking the one single commandment he had? I think you would agree that does not make a lot of sense.

If so, then how did man fall morally? I am not saying I am right, but this is a question I ask myself. It seems to me that the only change that occured is that they became aware when they sinned. They realized they were naked, and they realized they had done wrong. They felt guilt and shame for the first time and hid from God. Guilt and shame are not necessarily a bad thing. It is guilt and shame that brings us to Christ for forgiveness of our sins.

And what about Satan? Look at these two seemingly contradictory statements about him in scripture.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Almost all scholars understand this to be Satan, the annointed cherub that covereth. Notice it says he was perfect in his "ways" until iniquity was found in him.

He was not created sinful. He was without sin, he was pure. But he had the ability or potential to sin from day one.

And now look what Jesus says:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Wow, this seems to contradict Ezekiel 28:15. Jesus said Satan was a murderer from the beginning.

But you see, it is not a contradiction, because Satan was perfect when he was created, he had not sinned, he was sinless and pure. But on the other hand, he had the ability and potential to be a murderer from the beginning as well.

Tell me, am I wrong about this? Is this unscriptural? If so, please explain why.

I am not trying to be controversial here. These are sincere questions I ask myself when I read the scriptures.

 

[Winman]

I disagree. It is apparent by Adam's response to God (that was basically "hey, don't blame me, you gave her to me"), he was only looking out for self...which is the byproduct of sin. Adam had no intention of protecting anything but his backside

This one gave me a chuckle. Boy, us fellows love to think we are so macho and brave, but when the pedal hits the metal we run like mice. :laugh:

 

[fbcodr]

I disagree. It is apparent by Adam's response to God (that was basically "hey, don't blame me, you gave her to me"), he was only looking out for self...which is the byproduct of sin. Adam had no intention of protecting anything but his backside

That was after they had sinned. Before God made Eve from Adam he did some nice work on him to show him his need for a companion. The protection mode Adam was in was built within him. Adam may have been looking out for self and passing the buck when the sin came but so did the woman. He sinned with his eyes open and sought to pass the buck. But I fully believe Eve only talked about dying as a result of touching the forbidden tree was because of what Adam had told her.:godisgood:

 

[zrs6v4]

No, I am speaking of ability or potential. What I am saying is this, if on Monday I have never committed a crime, I am not a criminal (legally), but if on Tuesday I rob a bank I am now a felon (legally).

But how am I morally different? Did I not have the ability and potential to rob the bank on Monday?

And I think this is what Jesus was pointing out to people.

Matt 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus was saying that just because you haven't literally committed adultery, that does not mean you are not an adulterer. We have that in our hearts, the ability and potential is there. We are already evil before we actually commit the evil act.

Does that make sense?

And so with Adam and Eve, they must have already had the ability and potential to sin or they would not have been able to do so.

Now this is hypothetical, but couldn't Adam have lied before this? What if he got angry at Eve and killed her? Did he have this potential? Or do you believe the only sin he was capable of was breaking the one single commandment he had? I think you would agree that does not make a lot of sense.

If so, then how did man fall morally? I am not saying I am right, but this is a question I ask myself. It seems to me that the only change that occured is that they became aware when they sinned. They realized they were naked, and they realized they had done wrong. They felt guilt and shame for the first time and hid from God. Guilt and shame are not necessarily a bad thing. It is guilt and shame that brings us to Christ for forgiveness of our sins.

And what about Satan? Look at these two seemingly contradictory statements about him in scripture.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Almost all scholars understand this to be Satan, the annointed cherub that covereth. Notice it says he was perfect in his "ways" until iniquity was found in him.

He was not created sinful. He was without sin, he was pure. But he had the ability or potential to sin from day one.

And now look what Jesus says:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Wow, this seems to contradict Ezekiel 28:15. Jesus said Satan was a murderer from the beginning.

But you see, it is not a contradiction, because Satan was perfect when he was created, he had not sinned, he was sinless and pure. But on the other hand, he had the ability and potential to be a murderer from the beginning as well.

Tell me, am I wrong about this? Is this unscriptural? If so, please explain why.

I am not trying to be controversial here. These are sincere questions I ask myself when I read the scriptures.

Before the Fall- They had the ability to sin and to not sin, but there was no evil or heavenly nature to pull them. I dont fully understand this, but they were not evil in nature nor perfect like God. They were indeed good and sinless and remained holy and in fellowship with God

After the Fall- People have the ability to sin and to not sin, but there is a full evil nature as people are now dead in sin, blind, sepeerated from God, under wrath, and on and on. Now post sin people always sin hence they are born breaking the first command and thus break all commands unless they repent to God. Total depravity-

In heaven- People technically can sin or not sin, but their nature is that like God's and thus sin cannot happen. sin is gone and never enters the minds or hearts of heaven. This, just like the beginning I cant understand. We cannot sin, woohoo. Total glory

Now when I say "ability", here is what I mean

- Now, in sin we are unable to not sin or total inability (yes a paradox) we can never not sin although we can not sin. the choice is there, but we never heed. vice versa in heaven.

-This is just like God. He cannot sin, it is impossible. so He is not capable of sinning and cannot be tempted. But in some weird sense, please understand that this is to make a point, God technically could while at the same time it is impossible.

Can someone please correct me if I am wrong, but this is my view of the beginning, middle, and end of God's plan

 

[Winman]

I think there is some truth to what you say. I think that once you start sinning, it becomes easier to continue sinning. I remember in High School that the Police came one day and spoke to us about the dangers of smoking marijuana. They said it leads to harder drugs. Now, we kind of laughed at that, because there is nothing in marijuana itself that would cause you to snort cocaine or shoot up heroin.

But as I got older I understood. Once you compromise your morals, it becomes easier to do so again, and to go a little further. You think if marijuana didn't really hurt you, then cocaine won't either.

If you are a politician and take a bribe or campaign contribution for some favor, it becomes easier to do each time you do it.

So, I would agree that when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, it did start a downward spiral, and man has become more and more corrupt as time goes by.

-This is just like God. He cannot sin, it is impossible. so He is not capable of sinning and cannot be tempted. But in some weird sense, please understand that this is to make a point, God technically could while at the same time it is impossible.

I don't agree with you here, the scriptures say God cannot be tempted to sin. But don't ask me to explain, it is beyond my comprehension.

I have always wondered about the apostle John, when he was called up to heaven. The scriptures say he was in the spirit, so I do not believe he was physically there. But he fell down to worship an angel and was told not to do so.

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

This is a fantastic passage, it shows John making an error in heaven. Will we still be fallible after we have been raised from the dead?

 

[just-want-peace]

Will we still be fallible after we have been raised from the dead?

I would say emphatically -- NO!!!!

Once we cross the threshhold of death, or rapture, and we enter our eternal state, we are given resurrected bodies that are no longer under the nature of sin.

Otherwise the death of Christ would not have been sufficient to make us acceptable for living in the presence of God.

This is one of the top reasons I'm anxious to gain access to Heaven - I'll no longer be the (pick you own adjective/noun) that I despise in myself now!!!!!!

MARANATHA!!!!!!!!!

 

[Marcia]

Many disagree over this. I believe Adam picked Eve over God. I believe Eve was deceived by Satan, she believed Satan and Adam used his free will and knowingly disobeyed God.

In school we had to debate this from many views. The view I gave is the one I like the best. Another view is a good one and most would accept, Adam was disobedient when he picked Eve over what he knew God had said and took of the fruit, because anything else would have put sin before he took of the fruit. If he hadn't told Eve all that God had told him about the tree would have put sin back then. I don't recall all of them today but I think there was about 6 to 10 different views that we had to work with.

But we have to say that Adam disobeyed; this is the crux of the issue, whether Adam chose Eve over God or whatever his intent was, in the end, he disobeyed God by eating the fruit.

Speculation on why Adam did what did could go on forever and it doesn't really matter. What matters is that Adam did disobey God. This is what Romans 5 tells us about how sin came into the world.

 

[zrs6v4]

Winman I dont disagree that sin spirals downward, but there is a greater truth.

We are born in sin. This means we are born no wholeheartedly trusting in God keeping the first and greatest of all commands. I dont mean that we continually lie and steal, but we are continually breaking the first command unless we repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness. Therefore we are always sinning before we are saved. After we are saved we still sin like crazy, but actually for the first time beginning to fight in the right way. That way is to fight through trust and reliance upon God-- by faith

 

[Bob Alkire]

But we have to say that Adam disobeyed; this is the crux of the issue, whether Adam chose Eve over God or whatever his intent was, in the end, he disobeyed God by eating the fruit.

Speculation on why Adam did what did could go on forever and it doesn't really matter. What matters is that Adam did disobey God. This is what Romans 5 tells us about how sin came into the world.

I'm with you on Adam being disobedient. I think when he took of the fruit was the first time for him to be disobedient. I believe as noted at the start that Eve at best wasn't truthful and at worse she lied( I say she lied but my seminary professor on the subject would say she was deceived,and be correct) and that is why I liked Thomas' statement.

 

[kyredneck]

....I heard one pastor give a very good (though assumed) explanation for him eating the fruit. He said that Adam loved Eve and didn't want to lose her, and that eating the fruit and taking her sin upon himself showed his love for her and also was symbolic of the future sacrifice of Christ for our sin Who took our sin and payment upon Himself. I like that explanation.

Yes, I agree, therein lies a type of Christ [First Adam/Last Adam]. I believe it's significant that Paul emphasizes in 1 Tim 2:14 that Adam was NOT beguiled (as Eve was); indicating that Adam did indeed make a deliberate choice to die along with Eve in order to have her, just as Christ made a deliberate choice to die in order to have His bride.

It sounds like you've heard some good preachin'!