Did God Approve the Death penalty to have Jesus Killed By it?

[canadyjd]

God gave us that command, correct?

God didn't give "us" a command. God made a statement. (Gen. 9:6) "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man."

What does it mean? Are there any limits? Does it mean that God intends for us, each and every time, to kill a person who has any guilt whatsoever in the death of another?

If my son is killed in a car accident and the other driver was speeding, do I have the right to take his life based on Gen. 9? He "shed my son's blood". According to Gen. 9, do I have the right to take his life?

Who exactly has the right to seek the justice for that death based on Gen. 9? The text says God will require his blood and it will be done "by man". The government isn't mentioned in Gen. 9, since there was no government... only Noah and his sons and their families. So you can't say it is up to the government based on Gen. 9., that would be adding to the text later commandments of God.... which negates your argument that the death penalty is a permanent fixture in God's commands to us based on Gen. 9. because it came before the Law.

And, once again, you haven't answered my question. You said Gen. 9 is a "universal rule". What does that mean? Does it mean that God demands that every person that is guilty of the untimely death of another must be given the death penalty without exception? If you say there are exceptions, where do you see the exceptions in Gen.9?

 

[Yeshua1]

God didn't give "us" a command. God made a statement. (Gen. 9:6) "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man."

What does it mean? Are there any limits? Does it mean that God intends for us, each and every time, to kill a person who has any guilt whatsoever in the death of another?

If my son is killed in a car accident and the other driver was speeding, do I have the right to take his life based on Gen. 9? He "shed my son's blood". According to Gen. 9, do I have the right to take his life?

Who exactly has the right to seek the justice for that death based on Gen. 9? The text says God will require his blood and it will be done "by man". The government isn't mentioned in Gen. 9, since there was no government... only Noah and his sons and their families. So you can't say it is up to the government based on Gen. 9., that would be adding to the text later commandments of God.... which negates your argument that the death penalty is a permanent fixture in God's commands to us based on Gen. 9. because it came before the Law.

And, once again, you haven't answered my question. You said Gen. 9 is a "universal rule". What does that mean? Does it mean that God demands that every person that is guilty of the untimely death of another must be given the death penalty without exception? If you say there are exceptions, where do you see the exceptions in Gen.9?

God proscribed it for one who commits first degree murder, not for casr accident!

 

[canadyjd]

God proscribed it for one who commits first degree murder, not for casr accident!

Please show me the words "first degree murder" in Gen. 9. It says "sheds blood". That could mean anything from premeditated murder, to accidental deaths during a fistfight, to letting your ox run wild and causing another person's death.

Again, you won't answer the questions. What does "universal rule" mean? It is your term... you used it. Why not tell us what it means and what it doesn't mean?

You believe "sheds blood" means "first degree murder"? OK, let's look at that. Are you saying that based on the "universal rule" of Gen. 9, God will require the life of every person who intentionally takes the life of another in a premeditated murder?

 

[Yeshua1]

Please show me the words "first degree murder" in Gen. 9. It says "sheds blood". That could mean anything from premeditated murder, to accidental deaths during a fistfight, to letting your ox run wild and causing another person's death.

Again, you won't answer the questions. What does "universal rule" mean? It is your term... you used it. Why not tell us what it means and what it doesn't mean?

You believe "sheds blood" means "first degree murder"? OK, let's look at that. Are you saying that based on the "universal rule" of Gen. 9, God will require the life of every person who intentionally takes the life of another in a premeditated murder?

If a human murders another out of malice/intent, that would be premediated, and God said that person foefeits his own life by killing off another!

 

[Zaac]

God proscribed it for one who commits first degree murder, not for casr accident!

Is there some place in Scripture that God talks about degress of murder?

 

[Yeshua1]

Is there some place in Scripture that God talks about degress of murder?

yes, for under the law, he deals with the crimes of premediated killing, and accidental killing, so he does see just as our US law does degrees of murder andpunishment, as he lets the crime determine the punishment!

 

[Zaac]

yes, for under the law, he deals with the crimes of premediated killing, and accidental killing, so he does see just as our US law does degrees of murder andpunishment, as he lets the crime determine the punishment!

Me thinks you've slipped down an embankment :laugh: and are making Scripture fit what you want it to say. Where does He address degrees of murder? Accidental killings are dealt with as manslaughter.

Where does GOD address degrees of MURDER?

And again, one must venture that abortion is premeditated and I don't see folks lining up to execute abortionists.

 

[Yeshua1]

Me thinks you've slipped down an embankment :laugh: and are making Scripture fit what you want it to say. Where does He address degrees of murder? Accidental killings are dealt with as manslaughter.

Where does GOD address degrees of MURDER?

And again, one must venture that abortion is premeditated and I don't see folks lining up to execute abortionists.

Would say that he views killing in different ways, as one can murder someone by accident, can cause one to be killed without intent, or can plan it all out!

And God has permitted the USA to have legal abortion, so the arguement is NOT what to do with abortinits, but will murderers, as the US law defines it!

 

[canadyjd]

Would say that he views killing in different ways, as one can murder someone by accident, can cause one to be killed without intent, or can plan it all out!

And God has permitted the USA to have legal abortion, so the arguement is NOT what to do with abortinits, but will murderers, as the US law defines it!

But where in Gen.9 do you see such varying views of killing. It says "sheds blood", and that covers the whole gambit.

Yeshua1 said....

If a human murders another out of malice/intent, that would be premediated, and God said that person foefeits his own life by killing off another!

But that is not what happens in scripture. Cain killed Abel, premeditated murder... God did not require his life. Moses killed the Egyptian, premeditated murder (even hid his body in the sand) and God did not require his life. David had Uriah the Hittite killed...certainly premeditated murder, and then took his wife as his own and God did not require his life. Paul states that he persecuted Christians, sought them out and even casting his vote to have them killed... premeditated murder and God did not require his life.

My point is that those who hold fast to Gen.9 as the undeniable statement that God always requires the death penalty for murders are not seeing the whole testimony of scripture concerning this issue.

 

[Don]

Me thinks you've slipped down an embankment :laugh: and are making Scripture fit what you want it to say. Where does He address degrees of murder? Accidental killings are dealt with as manslaughter.

Where does GOD address degrees of MURDER?

And again, one must venture that abortion is premeditated and I don't see folks lining up to execute abortionists.

Did you not pay attention to the Gosnell case? There were folks certainly lining up for that one....

If abortion was legally considered murder, would you support the death penalty for abortionists?

 

[Zaac]

Did you not pay attention to the Gosnell case? There were folks certainly lining up for that one....

If abortion was legally considered murder, would you support the death penalty for abortionists?

Nope as I again don't believe God has left the decision to take life in the instance of punishing the abortionist in the hands of man anymore than He has in the instance of any other capital punishment.

The fact that man does not view baby murder as a deed punishable by death while highlighting other murders as punishable by death shows the inability of man to make life and death decisions righteously.

It rests with God ALONE.

 

[Don]

Nope as I again don't believe God has left the decision to take life in the instance of punishing the abortionist in the hands of man anymore than He has in the instance of any other capital punishment.

The fact that man does not view baby murder as a deed punishable by death while highlighting other murders as punishable by death shows the inability of man to make life and death decisions righteously.

It rests with God ALONE.

If you won't sentence an abortionist to death, then you can't actually use it as an argument against those who do support the death penalty. The only merit it has, as you've stated, is that it shows how flawed we mere humans are.

God decreed through scripture that the government is His sword. That scripture is found in the New Testament, through God's apostle to the Gentiles. Men are indeed fallible; yet, from the Old Testament to the New, He gave that terrible burden to His fallible creation.

 

[Yeshua1]

Nope as I again don't believe God has left the decision to take life in the instance of punishing the abortionist in the hands of man anymore than He has in the instance of any other capital punishment.

The fact that man does not view baby murder as a deed punishable by death while highlighting other murders as punishable by death shows the inability of man to make life and death decisions righteously.

It rests with God ALONE.

God delegated that to Isreal under the Law in the Old Covenant, and delegated that to the state/government under thre New Covenant!

Would you have had Hitler executed if he had been caught and put on trial?

 

[Zaac]

God delegated that to Isreal under the Law in the Old Covenant, and delegated that to the state/government under thre New Covenant!

God gave the word to punish unto death. WHo is He speaking to today in government to direct to punish someone to death. Punishment unto death rests with GOD just as it did in the OT

Would you have had Hitler executed if he had been caught and put on trial?

I break the same law every day that Hitler broke as do you. Would you execute yourself for YOUR law breaking?

Everything in the completed Law shows that Jesus expects His true disciples to be the complete opposite of what the impulse of the flesh is.

There is nothing anymore wicked about the capacity of Hitler to commit his atrocities than there is for any of us to continuously break God's law.

The flesh just always thinks somebody else's law breaking is worse than our own.

You break one, you broke it ALL.

 

[Yeshua1]

God gave the word to punish unto death. WHo is He speaking to today in government to direct to punish someone to death. Punishment unto death rests with GOD just as it did in the OT



I break the same law every day that Hitler broke as do you. Would you execute yourself for YOUR law breaking?

Everything in the completed Law shows that Jesus expects His true disciples to be the complete opposite of what the impulse of the flesh is.

There is nothing anymore wicked about the capacity of Hitler to commit his atrocities than there is for any of us to continuously break God's law.

The flesh just always thinks somebody else's law breaking is worse than our own.

You break one, you broke it ALL.

that is the SPIRITUAL punishement for being sinner, guilty of falling short of the perfection and holiness God demands!

NOT the physical punishment/judgement in this life, are you saying God views a parking ticket equal to lilling a child?

 

[Zaac]

If you won't sentence an abortionist to death, then you can't actually use it as an argument against those who do support the death penalty.

That's silly.

The only merit it has, as you've stated, is that it shows how flawed we mere humans are.

That's why I stated it. And as I said, God has not ceded life and death to the hands of seriously flawed men who are ALL EQUALLY guilty of breaking His law and who are ALL EQUALLY worthy of punishment unto death. Our government is not the arbiter of life and death and comes nowhere close to being able to righteously make such a decision.

It would almost be laughable to tell someone that the same God who "supposedly, according to some" gave the right to man to decide life and death, also decided that it's perfectly legal for that government to allow women to murder babies.

That's just absurd.

Did you guys know that in China capital crimes includes counter-revolutionary crimes, such as organizing an "armed mass rebellion"; endangerments of the public security, such as committing arson; During the 1980s, "economic crimes" such as bribery, drug-trafficking, and embezzlement were added to the legal code as being punishable by death.

Governments still issue out capital punishment for sodomy, adultery, and robbery.

In Afghanistan, they still have capital punishment for homosexuality, and apostasy. Yes a Muslim country can legally kill you for being an apostate.

In Brunei, Death penalty can still be used for unlawful possession of firearms and explosives; possession of heroin or morphine of more than 15 grams, cocaine of more than 30 grams, cannabis of more than 500 grams, syabu or methamphetamine of more than 50 grams, or opium of more than 1.2 kg.

And you guys are declaring that God has ceded to MAN the right to punish unto death?

My goodness. Afghanistan and Iran can kill you for being apostate. Yet you guys believe that God has ceded to man---the authorities---the right to make these life and death decisions?

How does any sinful man who has broken the same law qualify to righteously make such a decision?

God decreed through scripture that the government is His sword. That scripture is found in the New Testament, through God's apostle to the Gentiles. Men are indeed fallible; yet, from the Old Testament to the New, He gave that terrible burden to His fallible creation.

The sword is punishment. And no one has said to not punish. Just saying that the WHOLE of Scripture shows that God has not intended that sinful men make the decision to take another person's life for breaking the same law that we all break because we cannot RIGHTEOUSLY do so.

A Holy GOD simply isn't going against Himself and asking us to commit sin.

 

[Zaac]

that is the SPIRITUAL punishement for being sinner, guilty of falling short of the perfection and holiness God demands!

NOT the physical punishment/judgement in this life, are you saying God views a parking ticket equal to lilling a child?

We ARE talking about judgment in this life. God has called us to obey the laws from authority that are not in conflict to His law.

If you get a parking ticket for breaking man's law, then you've disobeyed and broken the whole of GOD's law just as would have the person who kills a child.

God HAS NOT given man the right too unrighteously kill anyone. Punish,yes. Kill, no. That contradicts His Holiness and the fact that He is just.

The authorities in the United States who say it is okay to take the life of another because of something he did are no different than the Imam authority in Iran who issues a jihad and tells Muslims to go kill infidels.

Which of these sinful men can righteously deem another equally sinful man worthy of death?

 

[Yeshua1]

We ARE talking about judgment in this life. God has called us to obey the laws from authority that are not in conflict to His law.

If you get a parking ticket for breaking man's law, then you've disobeyed and broken the whole of GOD's law just as would have the person who kills a child.

God HAS NOT given man the right too unrighteously kill anyone. Punish,yes. Kill, no. That contradicts His Holiness and the fact that He is just.

The authorities in the United States who say it is okay to take the life of another because of something he did are no different than the Imam authority in Iran who issues a jihad and tells Muslims to go kill infidels.

Which of these sinful men can righteously deem another equally sinful man worthy of death?

ALl sin os an affront to god, but NOT all sins are equally "bad" when they are done!
God recognises that sexual sins and Murder have "special" badness associated with them, so that Hod Himself does NOT judge and punish all sins commited same way!

ANY sin done would get me to hell, IF not saved by the grace of God, but murder gets me a much bigger punishement here on earth than throwing gum on the sidewalk, or jaywalking!

 

[Zaac]

ALl sin os an affront to god, but NOT all sins are equally "bad" when they are done!

Let's let Scripture speak for itself.

11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.”If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. James 2:11

In the eyes of God, breaking His Law is breaking His Law.

This not "equally bad" thing is just a way for men to justify their bloodthirst.

But if Christians are okay with capital punishment being meted out by the authorities, then they shouldn't take any issue with the different authorities in different countries choosing to punish unto death for whatever reason they choose.

So if the Afghani government wants to kill an ex-follower of Islam for becoming an apostate,according to what yall are saying you shouldn't take issue with it.

God recognises that sexual sins and Murder have "special" badness associated with them, so that Hod Himself does NOT judge and punish all sins commited same way!

Did that not just sound a little off to you after you typed it? Special badness? Your statement seems to say as I mentioned before that the sins of others are worse than ours and they are not.

The consequences and results may differ, but the sin is still sin.

ANY sin done would get me to hell, IF not saved by the grace of God, but murder gets me a much bigger punishement here on earth than throwing gum on the sidewalk, or jaywalking!

And that's in accordance with what MAN says. In accordance with what God says, you break one, you've broken them all. And that receives the SAME separation from Him.

 

[Yeshua1]

Let's let Scripture speak for itself.

11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.”If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. James 2:11

In the eyes of God, breaking His Law is breaking His Law.

This not "equally bad" thing is just a way for men to justify their bloodthirst.

But if Christians are okay with capital punishment being meted out by the authorities, then they shouldn't take any issue with the different authorities in different countries choosing to punish unto death for whatever reason they choose.

So if the Afghani government wants to kill an ex-follower of Islam for becoming an apostate,according to what yall are saying you shouldn't take issue with it.



Did that not just sound a little off to you after you typed it? Special badness? Your statement seems to say as I mentioned before that the sins of others are worse than ours and they are not.

The consequences and results may differ, but the sin is still sin.



And that's in accordance with what MAN says. In accordance with what God says, you break one, you've broken them all. And that receives the SAME separation from Him.

Again, ONE sin gets me judge rightly and condemned to hell forever, but while alive here, God demands society to punishment the more severe crimes more severely!

Are you saying that we should not have police/courts/jails, for spitting on the sidewalk eqwual to God as killing a child?