Did God Choose Some To Damnation Scriptural

[kyredneck]

I believe God predestinated everything that comes to pass

'Predestine' is found only four times in the scriptures and is ALWAYS in reference to God choosing a people for His own possession, NOT to events.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1

God is NOT the author of sin, he is NEVER the cause of sin:

And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind. Jer 7:31

and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Jer 19:5

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. Jer 32:35

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I am sorry, TC, but I cannot let this comment pass.

Calvinists use the term to separate themselves from the "frozen chosen", those Calvinists who do not believe or practice evangelism outside of the pulpit or only within the "covenant family". Double-predestination does not automatically equate to an extreme view within the Calvinist community.

Brother,

Do you believe the gospel is for the elect only, or also for the reprobate?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

'Predestine' is found only four times in the scriptures and is ALWAYS in reference to God choosing a people for His own possession, NOT to events.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1

God is NOT the author of sin, he is NEVER the cause of sin:

And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind. Jer 7:31

and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Jer 19:5

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. Jer 32:35

Brother,

I never said on the Baptistboard, nor do I believe that God is the author of sin. That is an ad-hominem attack often launched against predestinarians. Also you quoted Ephesians 1:11 that says God "works all things after the counsel of His own will", that sounds like predestination to me, how does he "work" something after His will if the event is not predestinated? Also scripture is clear that the sins by the men who crucified Christ, though these men were still to blame, their acts were predestinated by God and use to accomplish the greatest sacrifice of love and redemption history has or ever will see, therefore I do not see a problem with God predestining lessor evil acts and still not being the author of sin, do you? Finally, God is the first cause of all things, if He is not, then who do you believe is? Do you believe effects happen without causes, if so give examples? Finally I never said, nor do I believe, God is the cause of sin. God cannot sin because he is Holy. Satan and men are created evil and are the secondary causes of sin, however it was God's will that sin exist and this is obvious by taking a look at creation.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[TCassidy]

Again, the definition of a Hyper-Calvinist is one who goes above and beyond (meaning of "hyper") the 5 Heads of Doctrine found in the Canons of the Synod of Dordt.

 

[kyredneck]

"...which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind..."


I've done many many things in my life that He never intended for me to ever do. He DID NOT predestine me to do those things. He predestined me to be conformed to the image of His Son, not to do the evil deeds that I have done.

'Overruling providence' is much preferred over the unbiblical 'predestination of all things' of absolutism and Calvinism.

 

[tyndale1946]

"...which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind..."


I've done many many things in my life that He never intended for me to ever do. He DID NOT predestine me to do those things. He predestined me to be conformed to the image of His Son, not to do the evil deeds that I have done.

'Overruling providence' is much preferred over the unbiblical 'predestination of all things' of absolutism and Calvinism.

kyredneck... What is the difference between predestined and ordained?... Brother Glen

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[robustheologian]

If God ordained the greatest sin committed ever (the wrongful death of His Son), every other sin is within the scope of his decree.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe (Rom. 1:16). As a Calvinist I believe that only the elect will believe, but I also believe it is to be preached to all. And when I speak of the Gospel, I am speaking about the whole counsel of God (i.e. the Bible), not just a salvation message. The Gospel is not only for calling sinners to repentance and faith, it is also for building up and sanctifying.

Brother Reformed,

I agree only the elect will believe the gospel, but believe it is only for the regenerated. Every word in the New Testament was written to believers, not to unbelievers. Paul's practice was to visit synagogues, where men already feared God. For example we read, "Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures" ( Acts 17:1-2). Without a doubt, Paul is shown in the Bible as the greatest evangelist/preacher, however he did not have a jail ministry, home for unwed mothers, soup kitchen, summer youth camps, or any other invention to approach those who had no time for God. If peope didn't believe in God or have time for God he had no interest in them, as he declared to the Jews, "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. (Acts 13:46) Paul said he endured all things for the elect's sake (2 Timothy 2:10). Paul explained well that the gospel only benefits those already saved (1 Cor 1:18, 22-24). Paul prayed for deliverance from unbelievers, he had nothing for them. "Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith" (2 Thes 3:1-2)

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe (Rom. 1:16). As a Calvinist I believe that only the elect will believe, but I also believe it is to be preached to all. And when I speak of the Gospel, I am speaking about the whole counsel of God (i.e. the Bible), not just a salvation message. The Gospel is not only for calling sinners to repentance and faith, it is also for building up and sanctifying.

Brother Reformed,

I broke my posts into two so they wouldn't be too long. The great commission was given specifically to the apostles , "15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.and they fulfilled it." (Mark 16:15). The great commission was fulfilled by the apostles. "20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen" (Mark 16:20). The gospel had been preached in all the world to every creature very early, Colossians 1:23 " If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister" (Colossians 1:23). Jesus prophesied it would be preached in all the world before 70AD and the destruction of Jerusalem, "14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" We do not have the power to properly fulfill the Commission even if we wanted to as we do not have the accompanying signs and wonders Jesus declared those preaching the commission would have when he gave them the commission in Mark 16, only the apostles had that, "17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;8 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." (Mark 16:17-19)

There is not a mention in any epistle to any church that saving the lost is even a minor part of their church goals or responsibilities. Why this total silence on a subject that most contemporary Christians think is the most important mandate for the church? Why in the three Pastoral Epistles is there nothing even suggested of fulfilling the Great Commission by New Testament bishops and deacons?

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Iconoclast]

"...which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind..."


I've done many many things in my life that He never intended for me to ever do. He DID NOT predestine me to do those things. He predestined me to be conformed to the image of His Son, not to do the evil deeds that I have done.

'Overruling providence' is much preferred over the unbiblical 'predestination of all things' of absolutism and Calvinism.

Of course those wise and biblical Calvinists were not loose , but rather very careful on how they word the truth of How God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass.;

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

 

[Rippon]

Brother,

Do you believe the gospel is for the elect only, or also for the reprobate?

God has a purpose for even the reprobate to hear the Gospel. Look at 2 Corinthians 2:15,16:
"For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are perishing. To the one we are an aroma that brings death; to the other, an aroma that brings life. And who is equal to such a task?"

 

[MB]

Hi Brother MB,

Consider the following scriptures to support the predestination of the reprobate,

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation..." (Jude 1:4)

"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed" (1 Peter 2:8)

"...vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" ( Romans 9:22)

Brother Joe

Hi Brother Joe;
I've read those verses and to tell what I believe about them is that there simply isn't enough there to give me the same impression as yours. In fact in the very next sentence after Romans 9:22 Paul is speaking about the vessels of mercy. Why would The Lord endure vessels of wrath? if He didn't intend to make them vessels of mercies. After all we are all vessels of wrath before Salvation. We are all sinners.

The answer to verse 8 in 1st Peter is verse 10

1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Again we are all sinners and vessels of wrath until God acts and changes us.
MB

 

[MB]

Prov16: 4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

We were all wicked at one time or another. Some of us still are on occasion. Thank God for the sacrifice of His Son. With out which we'd all be going to Hell.
MB

 

[salzer mtn]

The conversation that brought about this thread was with a preacher that believed in absolute predestination of all things. My stance was that by Adam, sin came into the world but first God gave Adam a commandment not to eat of the fruit of the tree and the results if he did. His stance was that God ordains all things even Adams sin because God is in control of all things and orders all things and is the first cause of all things sin included. His view was it was Gods will that Adam sin so Adam could not help but sin. My view was Adam had free will before the fall and if God wanted Adam to sin why did he warn Adam not to sin and if anyone predestinated mankind to sin it was Adam. I ask the preacher if his view was correct couldn't man charge God with his sin. His answer was Who are you to question God, hath not God power to make one vessel unto honor and the other unto dishonor. This has all been very disturbing to me as this was one of only two churches in my area that preached Sovereign grace. The other church pastor has a more Christ based message in all his sermons but this pastor is very judge mental from the pulpit saying things like if you've ever had a guilty feeling since your profession then you don't know Christ. He also is of the Antinomian view. Also he is very strong in his belief that only through sovereign grace preaching can a person be saved and if you have ever made a profession before coming to sovereign grace belief the before hand profession is not worth a dime. I'm at a cross road in my life of whether it is best for me just to stay at home but I do want to attend church.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Sinners are not saved through spontaneous regeneration. The means of salvation is the preaching of the Gospel. .

Brother Reformed,

We read faith itself is a "fruit" of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22, the tree that produces the fruit must exist before the fruit is grown, thus one must first have the Holy Spirit before they can have faith in the gospel. Also, life always precedes action, a dead person cannot do anything, therefore one must be first made alive (quickened) by the Holy Spirit before they can have faith in the gospel as sinners are said to be "dead in trespasses and sins" prior to becoming born again. In gospel regeneration, spiritually dead people are doing spiritual things such as believing, this is an impossibility, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Romans 8:7)

The Holy Spirit uses the Gospel to convict sinners of their sinfulness and to provide them the hope found only in Christ. If this was not the role of the Holy Spirit, then how could anyone be saved? .

I agree on the purpose of the Holy Spirit, but disagree on the purpose of the gospel. You have regeneration and conversion as synonyms which they are not, the former always precedes the latter. The bible makes clear the purpose of the gospel, " who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10). If something brings something "to light", whatever was bought "to light" (in this case life and immortality) was already there. The gospel tells one how they were saved (through sovereign quickening of the Holy Spirit and the dead of Christ alone), it does not get them saved.

Jesus compares being born again to not being able to how men are unable to detect where the wind comes and goes from, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8), but Jesus's analogy would fail if gospel regeneration were the truth because then one could indeed say, "this is the exact time the Holy Spirit entered me", so how then could it be similar to the wind in not being able to tell from where it comes and goes?

In Acts 10:43 Peter says to Cornelius, "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” Once again we see the Gospel being proclaimed to unbelievers; this in a a letter written to a believer. I can cite numerous other scenes just within Acts, but I believe I have made my point.

I would argue Cornelius does not prove your point, it proves mine that regeneration precedes faith in the gospel. He was born again before the preacher Peter even arrived.
First, notice that before he met Peter or heard the gospel, Cornelius "feared God with all his house" (Acts 10:2). And from the Bible we know that those who fear the Lord possess God's salvation (Psalm 85:9). Unsaved men do not fear God (Romans 3:18; Psalm 36:1)).

Second, see that Cornelius' prayers were "come up for a memorial before God" (Acts 10:4), before he heard or believed the gospel through Peter. And Proverbs 15:29( teaches us plainly that God only hears the prayers of the righteous.

Third, observe that Peter acknowledged in verses (Acts 10:34-35) that God had already accepted Cornelius before Peter ever met him.

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

God has a purpose for even the reprobate to hear the Gospel. Look at 2 Corinthians 2:15,16:
"For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are perishing. To the one we are an aroma that brings death; to the other, an aroma that brings life. And who is equal to such a task?"

Brother Rippon,

I agree with you that God has a purpose even for those times when reprobate hear the gospel and inevitably do not believe as you have shown above, this I would not deny, but the gospel if not for the reprobate no more than Christ died for the reprobate.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Hi Brother Joe;
I've read those verses and to tell what I believe about them is that there simply isn't enough there to give me the same impression as yours. In fact in the very next sentence after Romans 9:22 Paul is speaking about the vessels of mercy. Why would The Lord endure vessels of wrath? if He didn't intend to make them vessels of mercies. After all we are all vessels of wrath before Salvation. We are all sinners.

Hi Brother MB,

Romans 9 is clearly contrasting two different sets of people, the reprobate and the elect, not contending that he would make vessels of wrath into vessels of mercy. These two sets of people are clearly seen in context before he even mentions the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. Romans 9:18, "18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth" 2 sets of people elect and reprobate. Again this is seen in the verse immediately preceeding verse 22 describinig the vessels "fitted for destruction", we read in verse 21, "21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor?" Therefore verse 21 lays out the ground of two separate sets of vessels that are further described in verse 22.

The answer to verse 8 in 1st Peter is verse 10

1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Again we are all sinners and vessels of wrath until God acts and changes us.
MB

Again 1 Peter 2:8-10, like Romans 9, is contrasting two sets of people. The first is seen in verse 8 described as those "appointed" to be "disobedient" to the gospel. "8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." (1 Peter 2:8). You cannot skip over to verse 10 without including verse 9 (though you did ), "9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you ". Notice the beginning of verse 9 starts off as saying "But ye", thus Peter is talking and contrasting the elect here with the reprobate he mentions from the preceding verse. He makes it abundantly clear verse 9 and 10 are talking of the elect as he calls them "chosen" (notice also God does the choosing in this verse not man) and he says they are "called" (notice also God does the calling not man as to their eternal state), thus to contend those spoken of in verses 8:-10 are all one same set of people who are changed as you have done is dishonest when viewed in context.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

We were all wicked at one time or another. Some of us still are on occasion. Thank God for the sacrifice of His Son. With out which we'd all be going to Hell.
MB

Brother MB,

Yes it is true we were all wicked at one time or another, but not all of us can it be said are created," wicked for the of evil" (Proverbs 16:4), this obviously can only be said of the reprobate. Again the next verse makes it clear God is talking about the reprobate, "5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished" (Proverbs 16:5) Job 21:30 should also be considered to shed more light on the predestination of the reprobate, "That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.". If I "reserve" something such as a hotel room I am planning on it in advance to make sure the actual room stay happens on that specific night. A stay at a hotel on a particular night is uncertain if the room is not pre-reserved as the hotel rooms may book up on that particular night.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The conversation that brought about this thread was with a preacher that believed in absolute predestination of all things. My stance was that by Adam, sin came into the world but first God gave Adam a commandment not to eat of the fruit of the tree and the results if he did. His stance was that God ordains all things even Adams sin because God is in control of all things and orders all things and is the first cause of all things sin included. His view was it was Gods will that Adam sin so Adam could not help but sin. My view was Adam had free will before the fall and if God wanted Adam to sin why did he warn Adam not to sin and if anyone predestinated mankind to sin it was Adam. I ask the preacher if his view was correct couldn't man charge God with his sin. His answer was Who are you to question God, hath not God power to make one vessel unto honor and the other unto dishonor. ..

Brother,

In regards to Adam, consider this, if God could have, could not he have created Adam in a manner in which he would have been free to choose not to sin, but that God foreknew he wouldn't sin? Sure he could of, but he obviously did not as Adam did sin. Moreover, if God didn't want Adam to sin, why would he make him in a manner knowing he would sin? After all, no rational human being would make a machine in such a way knowing that the machine would break and not turn out the way he wanted it to, but that is exactly what one must maintain God did if they do not believe Adam's fall was predestinated! If a human is smart enough not to purposely create something that would turn out contrary to the way the human wanted it to, why would God do such an absurd thing? Also, if it wasn't God's will that the fall take place, then you must conclude all the sin that is so prevalent in this world entered into the world contrary to God's will, how then can one even begin to assert God is in control? Would it not seem then that Satan has out generaled God? Also, what guarantee can we then have that sin would not enter into Heaven after Christ's return, if it entered into earth against God's will after he created the earth? Moreover, why on earth did God put Satan in the garden that resulted in the deception of Eve if it was not God's will for the fall to occur? Finally, did God not punish David for numbering the people, but yet moved David to do so? "And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah (2 Samuel 24:1). Since this is so, why couldn't God command Adam not to eat of the fruit, but yet will that He do so, he is God and can and does as He so choses.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Joseph,

You have left me quite confused. How have I given you the impression that regeneration does not precede faith? Perhaps it is because all the aspects of the ordo salutis are often rolled up in the terms "salvation" or "saved". If I am talking about regeneration or illumination, I am talking about salvation. If I reference justification, I am still talking about salvation. I do believe that regeneration precedes faith. I have held to that opinion for nearly 20 years.

Brother Reformed, you told me, "Sinners are not saved through spontaneous regeneration. The means of salvation is the preaching of the Gospel", so I concluded you hold to gospel regeneration (i.e. regeneration and belief in the gospel are simultaneous, accomplished through the means of the preached gospel, and that regeneration happens at the time of the outward call of the gospel), did I misunderstand what you meant? If so, I do apologize.

Brother Joe