Did God Command Murder?

[HeirofSalvation]

John:

Is it o.k. in warfare to butcher infants? Did God command the Israelites to do so in 1Sa 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Given this, did God command "Murder"? Please explain....

In order to say God commanded Abraham to sin....

Not the question you posed in your OP....God has morally sufficient reasons for all he does....that would not be sin.

(1) God can commit sin, or (2) that murder is not a sin when done for a good cause.

These are not the only two options, if one subscribed to "Divine Command Theory" for instance, that would not be the case. (I don't)

and includes the belief that there are no absolutes--in itself an absolute statement and therefore logically impossible

.
Again, a "Divine Command Theory" view is one of absolutes.

I agree. Abraham offering his son is a type of God the Father offering Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of the world.

It is, it brings the whole of the story, and the most signifigant (to us) portion of the story into focus....what it does not mean is that God did not say, according to my King James Bible:

Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

God commanded Abraham to engage in a ritual of human sacrifice, otherwise utterly deplorable and permissible under no conditions. It happened. The Bible says it happened.

 

[John of Japan]

d

John:

Is it o.k. in warfare to butcher infants? Did God command the Israelites to do so in 1Sa 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Given this, did God command "Murder"? Please explain....

1. Presupposition based on theology proper: God is good in all He does. He is holy and righteous at all times. He does not simply act in a holy and righteous manner, it is His very nature to be holy and righteous.
2. Fact: God commanded to kill the Amelakites including the women and children, even babies.
3. Conclusion (based on Biblical presupposition): God was holy and righteous when He commanded the death of all the Amalekites. We puny humans may not understand it all, but it was holy and righteous. It was not murder.

Any view that makes God guilty of murder when He commanded the death of the Amalekites makes Him guilty of acting contrary to His own nature, which is always just.

Again, God has authority as the Almighty Judge of the Universe. When He commanded the death of all Amalakites, He had infinite authority to do so. He can act in whatever way is just, and who are we puny humans to accuse Him of murder? He acted with infinite justice in commanding the Amalekites to be destroyed. (And by the way, they were an incredibly wicked people.)

Not the question you posed in your OP....God has morally sufficient reasons for all he does....that would not be sin.

God does not teach us that something is sin, and then proceed to commit the same act. The view that He does is a view that there are no moral absolutes.

These are not the only two options, if one subscribed to "Divine Command Theory" for instance, that would not be the case. (I don't)

Again, a "Divine Command Theory" view is one of absolutes.

Okay, thanks for the correction.

It is, it brings the whole of the story, and the most signifigant (to us) portion of the story into focus....what it does not mean is that God did not say, according to my King James Bible:

Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

God commanded Abraham to engage in a ritual of human sacrifice, otherwise utterly deplorable and permissible under no conditions. It happened. The Bible says it happened.

Sorry, you are simply stating your opinion, not answering the position stated in the OP. Abraham certainly did not believe that God commanded human sacrifice considering what he said about going to worship with his son and then coming back with his son. And Abraham was confident that God would provide an animal sacrifice.

In Jeremiah 19:3 we have proof not only that God would never command human sacrifice, but that such a thing would never even enter His mind: "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind."

 

[Winman]

John:

Is it o.k. in warfare to butcher infants? Did God command the Israelites to do so in 1Sa 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Given this, did God command "Murder"? Please explain....

No, and I'll tell you why. I believe all small children who die before they know to refuse the evil and choose the good (Isa 7:16) are saved. God does not hold them accountable for any sin they might have committed because they lack understanding.

If he had let the children live, they would have grown up and adopted the false religion of their parents and been lost.

We can see this today in our own culture. Africans were brought here as slaves and were taught Christianity. But today we see many African-Americans reverting back to Islam, the religion of their fathers.

Now, which is better, to die as an infant and be saved, or to adopt a false religion of your fathers and be lost?

Not the question you posed in your OP....God has morally sufficient reasons for all he does....that would not be sin.


These are not the only two options, if one subscribed to "Divine Command Theory" for instance, that would not be the case. (I don't)

.
Again, a "Divine Command Theory" view is one of absolutes.



It is, it brings the whole of the story, and the most signifigant (to us) portion of the story into focus....what it does not mean is that God did not say, according to my King James Bible:

Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

God commanded Abraham to engage in a ritual of human sacrifice, otherwise utterly deplorable and permissible under no conditions. It happened. The Bible says it happened.

God had no intention of allowing Abraham to kill Isaac, it was a test of his faith.

The story of Abraham and Isaac is a figure of the Father and Christ. God loved us so much (as Abraham loved God) that he was willing to give his Son that we might be saved. Isaac was a figure of Jesus in that he was willing to give his life in obedience and trust of his father.

 

[Aaron]

Abraham certainly did not believe that God commanded human sacrifice considering what he said about going to worship with his son and then coming back with his son. And Abraham was confident that God would provide an animal sacrifice.

Just as much an opinion as that you reject. Abraham had every intent of killing Isaac. His confidence was that God would raise him from the dead, Heb. 11:19.

 

[Deacon]

The modern definition of murder is to kill unlawfully with premeditation.

God commanded Abraham to sacrifice (ceremonially kill) his son.

It would have been a premeditated killing of an innocent human (technically if the Creator of the universe commanded Abraham to commit this act, it wasn't unlawful).

It was a command beyond Abraham's comprehension.

There are a lot of comments here excusing God's command based upon what eventually happened but the command was remarkable because it transcended Abraham's understanding of God, yet in faith he obeyed.

God's love for us transcends our understanding.
He completed the action he held Abraham hand from completing.
He did it for us.

Rob

 

[John of Japan]

The modern definition of murder is to kill unlawfully with premeditation.

God commanded Abraham to sacrifice (ceremonially kill) his son.

It would have been a premeditated killing of an innocent human (technically if the Creator of the universe commanded Abraham to commit this act, it wasn't unlawful).

Rob, your "technically" point in parentheses would seem to say that God did not command Abraham to commit murder. If God is the Law-Giver, and murder is to "kill unlawfully," then how could God have possibly commanded murder?

Furthermore, if it was murder, then wasn't God a murderer? If someone hires a hitman, who then kills the target, he is just as guilty as the hitman who pulled the trigger.

 

[Aaron]

The modern definition of murder is to kill unlawfully with premeditation.

God commanded Abraham to sacrifice (ceremonially kill) his son.

It would have been a premeditated killing of an innocent human (technically if the Creator of the universe commanded Abraham to commit this act, it wasn't unlawful).

It was a command beyond Abraham's comprehension.

There are a lot of comments here excusing God's command based upon what eventually happened but the command was remarkable because it transcended Abraham's understanding of God, yet in faith he obeyed.

God's love for us transcends our understanding.
He completed the action he held Abraham hand from completing.
He did it for us.

Rob

Is it not lawful for God to do what He wills with His own? It is not murder to kill in obedience to God.

 

[psalms109:31]

Job 14:5

A person’s days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed.

Luke 13:
13Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

God determines, He is not the murderer. The muderer are those who play god and kill outside of His will.

He is the one who has our days numberer and can't be the muderer who has numbered our days.

 

[Deacon]

Rob, your "technically" point in parentheses would seem to say that God did not command Abraham to commit murder. If God is the Law-Giver, and murder is to "kill unlawfully," then how could God have possibly commanded murder?

Furthermore, if it was murder, then wasn't God a murderer? If someone hires a hitman, who then kills the target, he is just as guilty as the hitman who pulled the trigger.

Abraham was told to sacrificially kill his son - to murder an innocent human being.

But God is the law-maker; he is under a different law.
He can do as he wills.
As C.S. Lewis wrote in "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe", "He is not a tame Lion".

“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!” Job 40:2 (NIV)

“Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
Do you have an arm like God’s, and can your voice thunder like his?
Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor, and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at all who are proud and bring them low,
look at all who are proud and humble them, crush the wicked where they stand.
Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave.
Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you".
Job 40:8–14 (NIV)

Rob

 

[John of Japan]

Abraham was told to sacrificially kill his son - to murder an innocent human being.

But God is the law-maker; he is under a different law.
He can do as he wills.
As C.S. Lewis wrote in "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe", "He is not a tame Lion".

“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!” Job 40:2 (NIV)

“Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
Do you have an arm like God’s, and can your voice thunder like his?
Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor, and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at all who are proud and bring them low,
look at all who are proud and humble them, crush the wicked where they stand.
Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave.
Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you".
Job 40:8–14 (NIV)

Rob

But Abraham did not appear to consider it murder. He said he was going to worship with his son, and the two would return. In fact, nowhere in the Bible is it indicated that the act was to be murder. As Scarlett aptly pointed out, the Hebrew word "slay" was used instead of the Hebrew word "murder" as in the Decalogue. So if we call it "murder," aren't we going beyond what the Scripture calls it?

Got to hit the sack. We start a missionary conference tomorrow. Have a good one. :sleep:

 

[Aaron]

But Abraham did not appear to consider it murder. He said he was going to worship with his son, and the two would return.

He hid his intent from his servants. They wouldn't understand anyway, and why tell them before any had to know?

Abraham's expectation was not that Isaac would be spared. The expectation was that God would raise him from the dead. That's what the Spirit testifies.

 

[saturneptune]

The whole premise of the thread is wrong. God is not a hit man and orders murder. God accomplishes His will by whatever means He chooses. The title of the thread implies sin on the Lord's part. I am not about to criticize Abraham either. That is one of those stories in the Bible that I know I could never had lived up to. There is no way I could have done that to my son, nor would I have. My faith is weak when compared to Abrahams.

 

[Deacon]

But Abraham did not appear to consider it murder. He said he was going to worship with his son, and the two would return. In fact, nowhere in the Bible is it indicated that the act was to be murder. As Scarlett aptly pointed out, the Hebrew word "slay" was used instead of the Hebrew word "murder" as in the Decalogue. So if we call it "murder," aren't we going beyond what the Scripture calls it?

I've prayed for you and your conference participants today.

************

A couple points regarding the various Hebrew words relating to this discussion

(1) Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him. Genesis 4:8 (NIV)

The word "killed" in Hebrew is transliterated hereg (root HRG) (see Strongs 2027; GK 2223).

In Numbers 11:11-15 Moses cries out to the LORD, "If you will treat me like this, kill (HRG) me at once, if I find favor in your sight, that I may not see my wretchedness.” [11:15 (ESV)]


(2) “You shall not murder". Exodus 20:13 (ESV)

The root word for "murder" ["kill" in AV] in Hebrew is RSH is transliterated here as retzah (see Strongs 7523; GK 8357)

Numbers 35:6 speaks of refuge cities where those who committed murder [retzah] (both premeditated and unpremeditated as noted in Nu. 35:11) could flee; this person is called a man-slayer (from the same root word- RSH) ["i]rotzah[/i]".

The passage defines various types ways one could be killed [or slayed AV] (see point #3)

“But if he struck him down with an iron object, so that he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death. And if he struck him down with a stone tool that could cause death, and he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death. Or if he struck him down with a wooden tool that could cause death, and he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death."
Numbers 35:16–18 (ESV)

(3) The passage in Numbers 35:11 talks of one who "kills"[ESV] or "slays" [AV] (the Hebrew word transliterated "makka") (Stongs 5221; GK 5782)

Used in relation to striking, smiting, hitting, beating.

In Exodus 2:11, the Egyptian was "beating" a Hebrew slave; Moses in response "struck down" the Egyptian. Both words ["beating" and "struck down" are from the same Hebrew root].

One day, when Moses had grown up, he went out to his people and looked on their burdens, and he saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his people. He looked this way and that, and seeing no one, he struck down the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.
Exodus 2:11–12 (ESV)




Noting the pattern of parallelism in Hebrew poetry if you look in Psalms 94 one can see these words are interrelated.

They kill [harag] [["slay" AV]] (Strongs 2027; GK 2223) the widow and the sojourner, and murder [retzah] (Strongs 7523; GK 8357) the fatherless;
Psalm 94:6 (ESV)

(4) One more word, "slaughter" used in Genesis 22:10 which is a killing (usually ceremonial) of an innocent, powerless victim.
[Hebrew transliteration: sa-hat, (Strong 7819)]

and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.
Exodus 12:6 (ESV)


Now what did the LORD ask Abraham to do?

He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” Genesis 22:2 (ESV)

The LORD asked Abraham to kill his son, his only son.

Abraham's response was to do the unthinkable: to kill, murder his son and offer him up as a sacrifice.

Abraham built the altar there and laid the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son.
Genesis 22:9–10 (ESV)

And yes, it is noted that this act is deplorable to the LORD.

And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your whorings so small a matter that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them?
“How sick is your heart, declares the Lord GOD, because you did all these things…
Ezekiel 16:20–21, 30a (ESV)

Rob

 

[HeirofSalvation]

d


Abraham certainly did not believe that God commanded human sacrifice considering what he said about going to worship with his son and then coming back with his son. And Abraham was confident that God would provide an animal sacrifice.

In Jeremiah 19:3 we have proof not only that God would never command human sacrifice, but that such a thing would never even enter His mind: "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind."

Abraham absolutely believed God meant a human sacrifice inasmuch as:
1.) that is precisely what God commanded him in plain language...he even said to burn him and the writer of Hebrews does everything in his power to prevent us from making this mistake when he says:
2.)Hbr 11:19 Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

No, and I'll tell you why. I believe all small children who die before they know to refuse the evil and choose the good (Isa 7:16) are saved. God does not hold them accountable for any sin they might have committed because they lack understanding.

If he had let the children live, they would have grown up and adopted the false religion of their parents and been lost.

Now, which is better, to die as an infant and be saved, or to adopt a false religion of your fathers and be lost?

God had no intention of allowing Abraham to kill Isaac, it was a test of his faith.

I agree with your statements...that is why I did not ask: "Did God have morally sufficient reasons" to command the slaughter of infants. I asked if
It is permissible to slaughter infants in war.

This, however, is an argument from consequences which is invalid...taken to its logical conclusion to justify an act: Then to believers, abortion and infanticide are things we should support enthusiastically.

There were more people affected by this as well, above and beyond the Amalekites, there is also the Jewish soldiers to consider....despite a brutal world they inhabited, and the belief that this would be morally justified....This would be a command which no doubt would effect them for a lifetime once they carried it out...

God's intentions, are beside the point....what God commanded is what God commanded, and what he commanded was human sacrifice.

 

[psalms109:31]

Genesis 17:19
Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

My faith is Isaac would not be killed that day, because of the sovereign will of God. This is the test that Abraham passed. When he took the advise of the wife and got his maidservant pregnant he failed. This is the final test, because the promise had to be fulfilled that his descendants would be like the sands of the seashore. This testing of his faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that he will be mature and complete, not lacking anything. At the end Abraham said the Lord will provide. How many of you have come to that conclusion that the Lord will provide?

Since our days our numbered by God we know he wouldn't of been sacrifice because Isaac did not die that day.

Murder and justice are two different things.

Who paid the sin debt of David, who paid our sin debt.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

We are all going to die it is not a tragedy, dieing without our Saviour Jesus is.

 

[Deacon]

I find it incredibly hard to see it any other way than murder; God asked Abraham to kill his son and offer him as a burnt sacrifice.

That's the focus of Abraham's faith; Abraham would have done what God asked even though it went against his hopes - he trusted God.

If God didn't ask him to murder his son, what exactly did God ask Abraham to do? This was no "kiss of God"!
It was a call to faith; a decision had to be made.

If God asked you to “take your son and offer him as a burnt offering", what would you be charged with?

Rob

 

[psalms109:31]

It all depends on who God has appointed judge of you at this time God is. The judge said it was a sacrifice

Genesis 17:19
Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

I would say with this scripture above Abraham was expecting a miracle for his son to still have descendants and his wife giving birth in her old age.

 

[Deacon]

It all depends on who God has appointed judge of you at this time God is. The judge said it was a sacrifice

FACTS:
(1) The Judge said sacrifice which required something being killed;

(2) The Judge said the sacrifice would be Abraham's son,

(3) the scriptures call someone who kills with a knife a murderer.

I don't see any other way around it than to simply deny what the scriptures say God asked Abraham to do.

Rob

 

[kyredneck]

.....Abraham had every intent of killing Isaac. His confidence was that God would raise him from the dead, Heb. 11:19.

17 By faith Abraham, being tried, offered up Isaac: yea, he that had gladly received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
18 even he to whom it was said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 accounting that God is able to raise up, even from the dead; from whence he did also in a figure receive him back. Heb 11


:thumbsup::thumbsup:

'In a figure', amazing when one considers that these things transpired in order for us to have this wonderful type of Christ, written for our admonition and example, amazing.