Did God design the best possible universe?

[12strings]

Originally Posted by Dr. Walter
First, lost sinners are not God's children but God's enemies!

Sorry folks, Dr. Walter gets a point for this one. Unbelievers are not called God's children in scripture, only believers (see John 1:12).
-Jesus said, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me” (John 8:42) Then a few verses later in John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they “belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.”
-It is also true that God Hates the wicked: Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

However, we should also note that God also loves those he hates:
-John 3:16 - (no need to quote that one) [if we need to discuss if "the world" includes unbelievers, we can, but hopefully the following 2 verses will make that discussion unnecessary)
-2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,1 not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
-Matt. 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. (God loves his enemies, and expresses this by giving them rain and sun...sometimes called common grace)

He Does NOT Love everyone the same way. He does not love those who have rejected him in the same way he loves those who have received him.

 

[12strings]

You are missing my point altogether! If he "could have" then he obviously did not, right? Why? Because what you suggest he "could have" was INFERIOR to what he did! Why? Because he never does anything less than perfect or the best. Therefore, to do what you think he "could have" was to invalidate himself as God because that would require repudiating what he actually did as good as what being God demands.

Is this your point: Not only DID God create the best possible world, but he could not have done otherwise, and because I suggested alternatives I am belittling God. Is that it?

I see your point, but I do not think it is belittling God to say he could have made the sky orange if he wanted to...even though he obviously decided blue was best and once that was decided he could not do other than the best.

 

[billwald]

>He Does NOT Love everyone the same way

How many ways are there for God to love a human? Please describe them.

 

[billwald]

>My philosophical problem is that God would save anyone.

My philosophical problem is that God would design a universe which would send people to Hell for not "believing in" Jesus when they never heard of Jesus. God made the rules. I would only have made that rule if my primary purpose was filling hell with humans.

 

[matt wade]

He Does NOT Love everyone the same way. He does not love those who have rejected him in the same way he loves those who have received him.

God loves everyone the same way. He is just in different relationships with different people. If you have two children and one goes his own way and the other obeys you, do you love them differently? I hope not, but you are certainly in different relationships with them.

 

[billwald]

If that happens, who changed? Me or my child?

We have the power to change God's love toward us?

 

[matt wade]

If that happens, who changed? Me or my child?

We have the power to change God's love toward us?

Who are you even responding to? What are you even responding to? Do you even know? I think you should lay off the meds billwald.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Is this your point: Not only DID God create the best possible world, but he could not have done otherwise, and because I suggested alternatives I am belittling God. Is that it?

Yes! For example, if "orange" was the very best possible choice for our atmosphere it would be "orange" as any other color would not be the best possible choice or God would have made that choice.

You are doing the same thing Job did in questioning "why" did God do this and not do that. Do you remember God's response?

 

[Dr. Walter]

>He Does NOT Love everyone the same way

How many ways are there for God to love a human? Please describe them.

The same Greek term "agape" is used for God's love as it is used to describe our own proper love for our fellow man.

We are told to "agape" our enemies, our neighbor, or broad family, our immediate family, our children, and our spouse.

However, do you agape your enemy as you do you children? Do you agape your children as you do your spouse?

Perhaps the distinction between love for enemies versus friends or family can best be seen in God granting sunshine and rain upon the wicked and godly alike. But does not he promise special and particular love to his people in the form of sunshine and rain in regard to their obedience? The former would be described as general benevolent love but the latter particular and special love

There is no doubt that God had general and benvolent love for Esau but he did not have particular and special redemptive love for Esau but "hated" him in that regard. God's general and benelovent love for the world was the Christ provision preached to all mankind calling on them to repent and believe, however, his particular and special love was the unconditional election of a people unto salvation granting them repentance and faith in the gospel (1 Thes. 1:4-5).

 

[12strings]

God loves everyone the same way. He is just in different relationships with different people. If you have two children and one goes his own way and the other obeys you, do you love them differently? I hope not, but you are certainly in different relationships with them.

John 17:9 - I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.


Interesting that Jesus would pray this for some people but not all...didn't he love everyone the same? If so why no pray for everyone.

 

[12strings]

Yes! For example, if "orange" was the very best possible choice for our atmosphere it would be "orange" as any other color would not be the best possible choice or God would have made that choice.

You are doing the same thing Job did in questioning "why" did God do this and not do that. Do you remember God's response?

Job was questioning God's actions because he believed them to be unfair.

I am not questioning God's actions or saying he did the wrong thing. I am simply saying, "God Designed a world in which some people reject him and go to hell." He could have designed a different world in which no one rejects him (had he determined that world to be better), but he did not; and we must trust that he made the right decision (which is in fact the only decision he could have made once he determined which world would be best by his standards). The evidence we have that God made the Best possible Universe is that this is the universe he actually made.

 

[12strings]

My philosophical problem is that God would design a universe which would send people to Hell for not "believing in" Jesus when they never heard of Jesus. God made the rules. I would only have made that rule if my primary purpose was filling hell with humans.

Well, God did design this type of world. Are you saying he made a mistake?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Job was questioning God's actions because he believed them to be unfair.

Job was questioning God's wisdom for his present actions toward men. God's response for questioning his present actions seems to be a challenge for God's design in creation as He takes job back to creation:

1 ¶ Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it......

It would seem to question God's wisdom for his present actions is in reality questioning God for his CREATIVE DESIGN as his present actions are resultant.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Well, God did design this type of world. Are you saying he made a mistake?

If your theory were correct, then the very best thing all Christians should do is keep their mouth shut and NEVER preach the gospel so that all could go to heaven.

However, that is flatly contradictive to the Great commission isn't it?

Those who never hear the gospel but go to hell are not condemned to hell on what they never heard! They are condemned to hell for rejection of whatever light they did have (Rom. 1:19-20; 2:12-15). Sin is what condemns a person to hell. The gospel is the power of God to salvation and that is purely of grace (1 Thes. 1:4-5).

 

[billwald]

> If you have two children and one goes his own way and the other obeys you, do you love them differently? I hope not, but you are certainly in different relationships with them.

If I can do something that will force God to alter his relationship his relationship with me then I have power over God in this situation.

 

[Alcott]

Did God design the best possible universe?

If He didn't, I suppose we'll never know it. Will we?

 

[billwald]

>>My philosophical problem is that God would design a universe which would send people to Hell for not "believing in" Jesus when they never heard of Jesus. God made the rules. I would only have made that rule if my primary purpose was filling hell with humans.


>Well, God did design this type of world. Are you saying he made a mistake?

I believe that Jesus died for the sins of the world thus the null case is "saved." God gives us the option to opt out if we don't wish to spend eternity with him. I believe the Church twisted the Good News for purposes of command and control. "You go to hell if you don't believe in Jesus" is not good news.

 

[Dr. Walter]

>>My philosophical problem is that God would design a universe which would send people to Hell for not "believing in" Jesus when they never heard of Jesus. God made the rules. I would only have made that rule if my primary purpose was filling hell with humans.


>Well, God did design this type of world. Are you saying he made a mistake?

I believe that Jesus died for the sins of the world thus the null case is "saved." God gives us the option to opt out if we don't wish to spend eternity with him. I believe the Church twisted the Good News for purposes of command and control. "You go to hell if you don't believe in Jesus" is not good news.

There is no such thing as "good" news until you understand the "bad" news! There is no such thing as "saved" unless there is such a thing as "lost"! There is no such thing as "justified" unless there is such a thing as "condemned." There is no such thing as judgement "according to your works" if there is no such thing as punishment according to your works. There is no such thing as "eternal life" unless there is such a thing as "eternal death." There is no such thing as "heaven" unless there is such a thing as "hell." Denying the existence of hell (hades) and/or Gehenna is denying the need for all the above (good news, saved, justified, eternal life, heaven).

 

[matt wade]

If I can do something that will force God to alter his relationship his relationship with me then I have power over God in this situation.

A relationship is a two way street. Only one side needs to change in order to change the relationship. God's side of the relationship doesn't change, man's does. The relationship itself changes. Man doesn't change anything about God or force anything on God. God is the same, the relationship between Him and the man is simply changed.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

I believe that Jesus died for the sins of the world thus the null case is "saved." God gives us the option to opt out if we don't wish to spend eternity with him. I believe the Church twisted the Good News for purposes of command and control. "You go to hell if you don't believe in Jesus" is not good news.

Bill, in your view what would constitute "opting out"?