Did God ever forgive Adam and Eve

[Kay]

Did God forgive them? Did they get to go to Heaven?

 

[DHK]

Did God forgive them? Did they get to go to Heaven?

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

He sacrificed an animal for them. Blood was shed on their behalf.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
--This is the first Messianic promise in Scripture. He promised them that a Saviour would come.

They never lost their salvation. They remained the children of God. What they lost was their fellowship with God. The were God's children to begin with, and never stopped being God's children. I have no reason not to believe that they will be in Heaven.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: They never lost their salvation. They remained the children of God. What they lost was their fellowship with God. The were God's children to begin with, and never stopped being God's children. I have no reason not to believe that they will be in Heaven.

HP: Can you establish the notion you claim in that Adam and Eve had ‘salvation’ prior to the fall? Can you establish that ‘death’ being the prescribed penalty for disobedience was as you put it a mere “loss of fellowship?” If so, tell us why it was the lie of Satan to say. "Ye shall not die" if death was a loss of fellowship and that is what really happened that day?

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

The problem here is that Adam and Eve are being treated as if they were discrete individuals, much as we are today. Think of them as archetypes of the whole human experience, and the problem goes away. The story is not about the destiny or the choices of individuals, but about the destiny and the choices we all make. We ARE Adam and Eve.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JMS: Think of them as archetypes of the whole human experience, and the problem goes away. The story is not about the destiny or the choices of individuals, but about the destiny and the choices we all make. We ARE Adam and Eve.

HP: The problem is that to do so is to philosophize Scripture in a way inconsistent with the facts of Scripture. It goes beyond what we are told by establishing the Augustinian notion of original sin as a fact when in fact it is not. One thing is for certain, no such philosophy appeared within the church until Augustine brought it into the Church with the false philosophical notion straight out of the handbbnok of the heathen philosophy he was steeped in prior to entering the Church, i.e., the notion that sin lies in the constitution of the flesh and not in the will of man. Such philosophy was unheard of within the Church prior to the advent of Augustine.

My conclusion is that it is wrong to start ones thinking from any such Augustinian presupposition such as you set forth.

JMS: We ARE Adam and Eve.

HP: You and I are NOT Adam and Eve. We are indeed their physical descendants, but the last time I checked Scripture, we are not them.

Help us Lord.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Kay: Did God forgive them? Did they get to go to Heaven?

HP: Scripture does not tell us of their ultimate fate that I know of. I can say that if they repented, and turned in faith to God for the sacrifice for their sins, and continued in that until their end, they were forgiven and safely made heaven their home.

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

HP: The problem is that to do so is to philosophize Scripture in a way inconsistent with the facts of Scripture. It goes beyond what we are told by establishing the Augustinian notion of original sin as a fact when in fact it is not. [snip]

HP: You and I are NOT Adam and Eve. We are indeed their physical descendants, but the last time I checked Scripture, we are not them.

Help us Lord.

It does not follow that reading Genesis as parable assumes the Augustinian idea of original sin. I reject that idea as you do. It goes contrary to later Old Testament insights as found in Jeremiah and Ezekiel that place responsibility for sin squarely on the shoulders of individuals and not on some connection with the past.

But what I am trying to say is that a sensitive and faithful reading of Genesis sees that in what these archetypal figures Adam and Eve did is what we all do. It is not so much that there is an inevitability about sin as it is that we all end up making the same choice -- to disobey God and to set ourselves apart from Him.

In making this point I am at one and the same time steering away from wooden literalism that cannot be squared with scientific understanding about human originas and yet also making sure that the core message about the Fall is not lost.

 

[Kay]

I don't see any repentance recorded even though animal skins were provided.

 

[Bob Dudley]

First, to answer the thread. I think, when God covered them, they were forgiven and looking forward to Christ on the cross.

Now, about the stuff that Mr Smith is talking about. I am an adjunct faculty member at Washington Bible College, I have degrees in physics, astronautical engineering, Bible and theology. Are you emplying that the scientific data points to an evolutionary time scale?

Origianlly Posted By Joseph M. Smith
steering away from wooden literalism that cannot be squared with scientific understanding about human originas

I think most scientists throughout history, and a good number of them today, would say the data better fits a literal young earth interpretation of Genesis. And that Adam and Eve were literally the first humans.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

It does not follow that reading Genesis as parable assumes the Augustinian idea of original sin. I reject that idea as you do. It goes contrary to later Old Testament insights as found in Jeremiah and Ezekiel that place responsibility for sin squarely on the shoulders of individuals and not on some connection with the past.

But what I am trying to say is that a sensitive and faithful reading of Genesis sees that in what these archetypal figures Adam and Eve did is what we all do. It is not so much that there is an inevitability about sin as it is that we all end up making the same choice -- to disobey God and to set ourselves apart from Him.

In making this point I am at one and the same time steering away from wooden literalism that cannot be squared with scientific understanding about human originas and yet also making sure that the core message about the Fall is not lost.

Joseph, thanks for this interesting perspective and insight. I have long believed the Genesis story to be conveying universal truth about human nature, but never heard it put quite this way. I appreciate it.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe it is more correct to say that Adam and Eve both became lost condemned sinners at the fall -- they needed a Savior -- they were doomed to the second-death lake of fire without Christ.

God showed them the need for the death of His Son to save them. When Cain and Able came before God to offer sacrifices it was because their parents had led them in worhsip to God - in the need for sacrifices for sin that pointed to Christ the ultimate and the real one-and-only sacrifice for sin.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

why it was the lie of Satan to say. "Ye shall not die" if death was a loss of fellowship and that is what really happened that day?

The Biblical definition of death is separation.
They did die--spiritually; they were spiritually separated from God.
They lost their fellowship with God for a temporary period of time until God sought them out and that fellowship was restored.

 

[Amy.G]

The Biblical definition of death is separation.
They did die--spiritually; they were spiritually separated from God.
They lost their fellowship with God for a temporary period of time until God sought them out and that fellowship was restored.

The wages of sin is death. The soul that sins shall die. These verses are speaking of spiritual death, correct? Eternal separation from God? Not loss of fellowship. When Adam and Eve sinned, they died. The same way that we die when we sin. We must have a redeemer and so did Adam and Eve. When God killed an animal to cloth them, wasn't this the first sacrifice for sin? Didn't God redeem them at that point?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: The wages of sin is death. The soul that sins shall die. These verses are speaking of spiritual death, correct? Eternal separation from God? Not loss of fellowship. When Adam and Eve sinned, they died. The same way that we die when we sin. We must have a redeemer and so did Adam and Eve. When God killed an animal to cloth them, wasn't this the first sacrifice for sin? Didn't God redeem them at that point?

HP: Excellent post and questions Amy. :thumbs:

If we are to take what DHK has implied, in that they never lost their 'saved' standing before God but rather merely lost fellowship for a time period, could it not also be assumed that they were OSAS from the beginning? Why can not we safely assume then universalism, all men having being born with their OSAS nature?

When you start down the path of indicating that sin does not reap the reward God stated it would, i.e., eternal separation from God, there is no end to the maelstrom of confusion it will gender.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joseph Smith: It does not follow that reading Genesis as parable assumes the Augustinian idea of original sin. I reject that idea as you do. It goes contrary to later Old Testament insights as found in Jeremiah and Ezekiel that place responsibility for sin squarely on the shoulders of individuals and not on some connection with the past.

HP: I can appreciate your further explanation here as to your true sentiments. Please forgive me on my association of your views with OS that obviously in your case, if I understand you correctly, you do not hold to.

JS: The problem here is that Adam and Eve are being treated as if they were discrete individuals, much as we are today. Think of them as archetypes of the whole human experience, and the problem goes away. The story is not about the destiny or the choices of individuals, but about the destiny and the choices we all make. We ARE Adam and Eve.

HP: If Adam was not a real individual, and Christ was called “the second Adam,” how would you explain the nature of Christ in relationship to Adam? How would you refute one, holding to the view that “we ARE Adam and Eve,” if they also felt that we ARE Christ as well, He being the second Adam?

JS: But what I am trying to say is that a sensitive and faithful reading of Genesis sees that in what these archetypal figures Adam and Eve did is what we all do. It is not so much that there is an inevitability about sin as it is that we all end up making the same choice -- to disobey God and to set ourselves apart from Him.

HP: It is true that we all sin, but Scripture tells us that all have NOT sinned in like manner as did Adam and Eve, although it can rightfully be said that all, in our dispensation, have indeed sinned. If in fact we ARE “Adam and Eve” why would Scripture be so plain to explain that although they sinned, we all have not sinned in the same manner? Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Again, why the distinction in sins if “we ARE Adam and Eve?”

JS: In making this point I am at one and the same time steering away from wooden literalism that cannot be squared with scientific understanding about human origins and yet also making sure that the core message about the Fall is not lost.

HP: What part, of what you see as the “scientific understanding about human origins,” is at antipodes with a plain literal understanding of Scripture’s creation account in Genesis?

 

[DHK]

The wages of sin is death. The soul that sins shall die. These verses are speaking of spiritual death, correct? Eternal separation from God? Not loss of fellowship. When Adam and Eve sinned, they died. The same way that we die when we sin. We must have a redeemer and so did Adam and Eve. When God killed an animal to cloth them, wasn't this the first sacrifice for sin? Didn't God redeem them at that point?

How is "spiritual death" equated to eternal separation from God?

The Bible always speaks of death in terms of separation.
1. There is physical death.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--When the body separates from the spirit, the result is death. That is all that physical death is--the separation of the spirit from the body.

2. There is the spiritual death of the unbeliever:
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--These believers were not lifeless, annihilated, had ceased to exist, were buried an in the grave, etc. They were simply separated from God spiritually. They were then regenerated by the Holy Spirit. "God made them alive." He brought to life their spirits which had been previously separated from him. They were no longer separated but now in union with God, even as a branch is in union with the vine.

3, There is the spiritual death of the believer.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
--As the Psalmist points out it is sin that separates us from God.
To this end we must die to sin, die to our own selves, die to our own flesh on a daily basis. Paul says "I die daily." I put to death my own desires, and say yes to the desires of Christ instead. I separate myself and my desires, and the desires of the word, and lay them aside, replacing them with the desires of Christ. That is what dying to self, or being crucified with Christ is all about.

4. There is eternal death--being separated from God for all eternity.
Romans 6:23: The wages of sin is death (eternal death or separation) set in contratst to eternal life, the gift of God.

5 There is the Second Death.--The one and final sentence of God, also separation.

Adam and Eve never received a sentence of eternal condemnation. That cannot be demonstrated from Scripture. They were separated from God by their sin, just as we all are. That is why 1John 1:9 tells us to go to Him and confess our sin, with the promise of forgiveness. Did God forgive Adam and Eve? There is nothing to suggest that He diddn't.
I would suggest that perhaps the onus would be on you and others to set forth the evidence that God did not forgive Adam and Eve.

What did God do:
He gave Eve one of the most remarkable promises in all the Word of God. It is the first Messianic promise--a promise of a coming Messiah.
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Read the following chapters carefully. According to the names of her children, she had hope in a Messiah to come. The names of her children reflected that hope.
For example even their first born, Cain, "from the Lord", possibly in hopes that he would be that one to come.
The name "Seth" means "Appointed." Was he the "Appointed One." the one appointed of the Lord to be the Messiah? The names that Eve chose reflected her hope in a coming Messiah.

Secondly, God Himself provided a redemptive sacrifice when he made them coats of skin. An animal was sacrificed. Blood was shed.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. This is the first blood sacrifice in the Bible, and it was done by God Himself. All subsequent sacrifices would also have to be blood sacrifices. Cain tried to go a different route and his sacrifice was not acceprted, and God was not pleased. Abel's sacrifices were accepted; they were blood sacrifces. Blood had to be shed. Blood was shed on behalf of Adam and Eve.

"It is the blood that makes an atonement for our sins." (Lev.17:11).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The question is not now nor has it ever been whether or not sin brings separation from God. That is NOT the question. The question is whether or not sin brings about a certain hope of eternal damnation, or whether sin results in a mere temporal separation.

DHK, was Adam OSAS? That is the real question. You spoke of Adam having salvation and then being temporarily out of fellowship as a result of sin. Was he really saved all the time or did he lose his standing with God and as such inherited a hope of eternal damnation at least for a time period? Did the separation from God Adam encountered gender a certain hope of eternal damnation, or again, was Adam really still saved all the time, losing only fellowship for a short while, all the while his 'eternal' standing remaining constantly OSAS?

 

[Amy.G]

I have a problem with the notion that Adam lost fellowship when he sinned. When we sin, I do believe that we are separated from God, as in fellowship with Him. But we do not lose our salvation every time we sin because the sacrifice has been made by Christ, once for all. The sacrifice that God made (killing an animal, shedding it's blood) to clothe Adam and Eve was a precursor (for lack of a better word) to the true sacrifice that was to come. Adam needed salvation just as every other human being needs it. I think when Adam sinned, that he "fell" and needed a Savior. That is why God shed blood on his behalf to cover his sin until the true Savior, Christ, came.

What do you think?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AMY: What do you think?

HP: I am unsure as to who the ‘you’ is, but I will assume it refers to one and all. :smilewinkgrin:

Give the questions I posed to DHK a shot. How would you answer them? Was Adam OSAS? When he simply took that first bite out of the forbidden fruit, was his only hope at that time eternal damnation apart from God? If, as you say, that you do not believe we lose our salvation when we sin, did or did not Adam lose his standing with God when he sinned? Was Satan in all reality telling the truth when he told Eve that she should not certainly die?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: I am unsure as to who the ‘you’ is, but I will assume it refers to one and all. :smilewinkgrin:

Give the questions I posed to DHK a shot. How would you answer them? Was Adam OSAS? When he simply took that first bite out of the forbidden fruit, was his only hope at that time eternal damnation apart from God? If, as you say, that you do not believe we lose our salvation when we sin, did or did not Adam lose his standing with God when he sinned? Was Satan in all reality telling the truth when he told Eve that she should not certainly die?

"You" meant you and anyone else who wanted to answer.

Since I don't believe in original sin, I think Adam was created innocent, the same as when an infant is born. When he sinned, he then required a Savior, just as when we willfully sin, we need a Savior.


Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.