Did God ever forgive Adam and Eve

[DHK]

DHK, was Adam OSAS?

Your question doesn't make sense.
It is like asking:

Was Lucifer OSAS?
Was Gabriel OSAS? How do you know?

 

[Amy.G]

Your question doesn't make sense.
It is like asking:

Was Lucifer OSAS?
Was Gabriel OSAS? How do you know?

It makes perfect sense. You are saying that Adam did not need to be redeemed, that he was always a child of God and only his fellowship with God was broken when he sinned.

Originally Posted by DHK
The Biblical definition of death is separation.
They did die--spiritually; they were spiritually separated from God.
They lost their fellowship with God for a temporary period of time until God sought them out and that fellowship was restored.

Adam and Eve never received a sentence of eternal condemnation. That cannot be demonstrated from Scripture

.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

All who sin must be redeemed through Christ or else the wrath of God remains on them.
If they did not receive condemnation, why did God sacrifice an animal and shed it's blood on their behalf??
They sinned, therefore that had to be redeemed.

The answer to the OP is yes, Adam and Eve were forgiven. This is clearly shown by God shedding blood to cover them (their sin). For without shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
The blood was shed to save them, not to restore fellowship.
I am not saying that they "lost" their salvation, as salvation is not required for those who do not sin. They were innocent, and not in need of a Savior up until they sinned. At that point they died spiritually, and had to have a Savior to redeem them back to God or else they would have stayed eternally lost and condemned.

 

[DHK]

]At that point they died spiritually, and had to have a Savior to redeem them back to God or else they would have stayed eternally lost and condemned.

They died spiritually.
That is where your confusion lies. To die means to be separated. They were separted from God, spiritually. That doesn't mean they "became" unsaved. It simply means they lost their fellowship.

Put it in a NT context. Do you believe that once a person "born" into God's family can be "unborn"?, that is, can lose their salvation? Do you believe that a "child of God" will be cast out of the family of God, that God will disown his own--they will be disinherited of their gift of eternal life. Then eternal life would never have been eternal life to begin with, would it? And God would have lied.

Adam and Eve were created innocent. They were created as God's children. As God's children they would always remain God's children. Nothing would ever change that. God was not going to disown them, or cast them out of his family. Their sin separated them for a season, but eventually they were reconciled with God, even as a son is reconciled with his father. The separation was not forever. Where does the Bible say that?

 

[Amy.G]

They died spiritually.
That is where your confusion lies. To die means to be separated. They were separted from God, spiritually. That doesn't mean they "became" unsaved. It simply means they lost their fellowship.

Put it in a NT context. Do you believe that once a person "born" into God's family can be "unborn"?, that is, can lose their salvation? Do you believe that a "child of God" will be cast out of the family of God, that God will disown his own--they will be disinherited of their gift of eternal life. Then eternal life would never have been eternal life to begin with, would it? And God would have lied.

Adam and Eve were created innocent. They were created as God's children. As God's children they would always remain God's children. Nothing would ever change that. God was not going to disown them, or cast them out of his family. Their sin separated them for a season, but eventually they were reconciled with God, even as a son is reconciled with his father. The separation was not forever. Where does the Bible say that?

DHK, when a person commits their first sin, what happens? They become a sinner and are forever separated from God unless they have a redeemer. Our redeemer is Christ. Without faith in Him, we remain under God's wrath. The same was true of Adam and Eve. They had NO need of a Savior UNTIL they sinned. They did not just lose fellowship with God, they became under His wrath until He shed the blood on their behalf. They required salvation just as we do because they sinned.
You are assuming they were "saved" before the fall. I am saying they did not need salvation because they were innocent until they fell. They were created innocent. They were not created saved. If they were created "saved", what were they saved from? No one needs salvation until they sin against God. That is why babies are in heaven.

I think the problem with our discussion is that you believe in original sin and I do not.

 

[DHK]

You are assuming they were "saved" before the fall. I am saying they did not need salvation because they were innocent until they fell. They were created innocent. They were not created saved. If they were created "saved", what were they saved from? No one needs salvation until they sin against God. That is why babies are in heaven.

I think the problem with our discussion is that you believe in original sin and I do not.

They had nothing to be saved from, as you imply. They were created perfect and in innocence. They were created as God's children.

Tell me Amy, when you sin are you automatically pushed out of God's family?
When you committed that "first sin" after you were saved, did God suddenly disown you and then you had to get saved all over again?

As you yourself admit, they were created in innocence, as God's children. Why then would they need "salvation" all over again. They were already God's children. It seems as if you are the one that believes in "original" sin, not me.
These were God's children right from day one. God looked on his creation and saw that everything that He created (including Adam and Eve) was very good. There was no evil in them. The fact that they sinned does not mean that He disowned them. Go back through the story in chapter three. See how God seeks them out; gives them every chance to repent; shows his boundless love toward them; treats them as a Father does for a child.
If they were unsaved, why didn't he just suddenly cast them into Hell and be done with the human race all at once at that time? Why not just exercise his judicial power right there and then?

 

[Amy.G]

They had nothing to be saved from, as you imply. They were created perfect and in innocence. They were created as God's children.

Tell me Amy, when you sin are you automatically pushed out of God's family?
When you committed that "first sin" after you were saved, did God suddenly disown you and then you had to get saved all over again?

No, of course not. But I'm not talking about post-salvation sin. I'm talking about sins committed before salvation. They cause us to be separated from God, condemned.

As you yourself admit, they were created in innocence, as God's children. Why then would they need "salvation" all over again. They were already God's children. It seems as if you are the one that believes in "original" sin, not me.

They did not need salvation "all over again" because they were not saved or unsaved when they were created. They were innocent, not guilty. Salvation is needed after we've been found to be guilty of sin.
And no, I do not believe in original sin.

These were God's children right from day one. God looked on his creation and saw that everything that He created (including Adam and Eve) was very good. There was no evil in them. The fact that they sinned does not mean that He disowned them. Go back through the story in chapter three. See how God seeks them out; gives them every chance to repent; shows his boundless love toward them; treats them as a Father does for a child.

The fact that Adam and Eve sinned does indeed mean God disowned them, or better put, condemned them. Why else does anyone need Christ?????? We must be redeemed back to God. It is sin that separates us. An infant is not separated from God because he has not sinned. If he dies as an infant, he will go to be with God. He is innocent. But those of us that live long enough will sin and that is when we become separated from God, just as Adam was until God shed blood to cover his sin in order to redeem him back. Adam was not born a sinner. Neither is an infant. No one is condemned and separated from God until they willfully sin against God. The same thing that happened to Adam, happens to us. We are right with God from the womb until we willfully sin against Him. At that very point, we must have a Savior.
Have you ever wondered why the Bible doesn't speak about infant salvation? Could it be because infants don't need salvation because they are innocent, just like Adam was innocent?

ALL who sin, need salvation. Adam was no different because the wages of sin is death.

If they were unsaved, why didn't he just suddenly cast them into Hell and be done with the human race all at once at that time? Why not just exercise his judicial power right there and then?

Because God is merciful and full of grace. He didn't created us to condemn us and leave us there. He had a plan of salvation before He created anything. He began to carry out His plan when Adam and Eve sinned. They were the first people to be saved from eternal death.


I think you're saying that we need Christ because of Adam's sin that was passed on to us. But we need Christ because of our own personal sin and Adam needed Christ because of his own personal sin. We are not punished because of Adam's sin. We are punished, or separated from God because of our own sin.

 

[DHK]

No, of course not. But I'm not talking about post-salvation sin. I'm talking about sins committed before salvation. They cause us to be separated from God, condemned.

There was no sin committed "before salvation." There was no point of salvation. They were created as "God's children" never to be disowned or disinherited as God's children. There is no such theology as "You must be born again and again and again and again...." That is what I infer from your post here.
They simply needed to be restored to fellowship with God, as we all do when we disobey God.

They did not need salvation "all over again" because they were not saved or unsaved when they were created. They were innocent, not guilty. Salvation is needed after we've been found to be guilty of sin.
And no, I do not believe in original sin.

He was in a state of innocence.
He sinned. That resulted in the fall. But it says nothing about their salvation or the loss of it. The word used specifically in Romans 5 is "disobedience" a word used in relation to God's children. When God's children disobey God they are chastened as Adam was.
Remember that Adam is referred to as "the First Adam" and Christ, "The Second Adam." Would an unsaved man be a type of Christ? I don't think so. Where in Scripture do unsaved people represent Jesus Christ? You have provided no evidence (Scriptural evidence) that Adam at any point in his life was unsaved.
Disobedience does not automatically mean unregenerate.
No one would make it to heaven if that is what it meant.

The only sin that causes one to go to Hell is the rejection of Jesus Christ
Adam and Eve never rejected God, nor even the promise of God of a coming Messiah. They only rebellied against one of his commands. That does not warrant eternal condemnation.

The fact that Adam and Eve sinned does indeed mean God disowned them, or better put, condemned them. Why else does anyone need Christ??????

Then logically God can disown you at any time that you sin. You must not believe in eternal security. You must believe that one must be born again many times, not just one. Adam and Eve were already God's children. They could not be disowned. God does no such thing. They didhn't need to be saved "from their sin." They were already children of God. They needed restoration to God. Their fellowshi[p needed to be restored. David committed adultery and then murder, but yet didn't lose his salvation, but needed to repent to restore his fellowship with God. The same is true here.

We must be redeemed back to God. It is sin that separates us. An infant is not separated from God because he has not sinned.

An infant is separated from God by his very sin nature which he inherits. If he dies in infancy God in his mercy will take him to heaven. We all inherit a sin nature, a nature inherited from Adam that gives us the propensity to sin.

If he dies as an infant, he will go to be with God. He is innocent.

No one is innocent. "There is none good; no not one."

But those of us that live long enough will sin and that is when we become separated from God, just as Adam was until God shed blood to cover his sin in order to redeem him back. Adam was not born a sinner. Neither is an infant.

"In sin did my mother conceive me." The phrase means that David was born with a sin nature. We all are born with a sin nature. We are not born sinless. Only Christ was sinless. It was necessary for Christ to be born of a virgin for him to inherit a sinless nature. Children are not innocent. They have a sin nature.

No one is condemned and separated from God until they willfully sin against God.

If Christ had not paid the penalty for our sin, all, including infants, would be in hell, and God would be perfectly just in doing so. Nothing that is defiled can enter into heaven. Even an infant, by its very sin nature is defiled before God.

The same thing that happened to Adam, happens to us. We are right with God from the womb until we willfully sin against Him. At that very point, we must have a Savior.

Man is not right from the womb (Psalms 51:5; 58:3). He is guilty as soon as he is born. He is born with a sin nature.

Have you ever wondered why the Bible doesn't speak about infant salvation? Could it be because infants don't need salvation because they are innocent, just like Adam was innocent?

Infants are not innocent. God told Joshua to destroy the infants of Jericho as well as everyone else. God told the Israelites to exterminate all of the Canaanites including the infants. All are born with a sin nature. They would grow up and lead the nation of Israel astray.

ALL who sin, need salvation. Adam was no different because the wages of sin is death.

Christ paid that penalty for us. The one sin that sends a person to Hell is the rejection of the payment of that penalty--the rejection of Christ and his work on the cross. Adam never did that. He never rejected God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: I think you're saying that we need Christ because of Adam's sin that was passed on to us. But we need Christ because of our own personal sin and Adam needed Christ because of his own personal sin. We are not punished because of Adam's sin. We are punished, or separated from God because of our own sin.

HP: Amy, you have a keen grasp on the heart of the truth concerning the matter of sin. Let nothing detract from it. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: We all inherit a sin nature, a nature inherited from Adam that gives us the propensity to sin.

HP: Make no mistake there is plenty in your last posts I disagree with that I could point out, but I feel it better to highlight a clear statement of truth in which we could find great agreement. The thing we need to see clearly is there is a big difference between a tendency to sin, or a proclivity to sin, and sin itself. Sin is when we allow our wills to voluntarily transgress against a known commandment of God by the formation of selfish intents. The problem comes in when one tries to make yielding a necessity (as original sin implies) eliminating voluntary choice in the process. By eliminating choice moral agency and moral responsibility is destroyed. A proclivity to sin is not sin in and of itself, but rather signifies a temptation to sin.

If ones propensity to sin becomes so strong that yielding to selfishness is in fact unavoidable, such a one is not a moral agent and cannot be held accountable for intents formed subsequent to necessity becoming a reality. One must be able to do something other than what one does, under the very same circumstances, for choice and or moral praise or blame to be predicated.
Here is how I might formulate a doctrine to speak to the way we are born. All men are born with a proclivity to sin, and all who come to the age of accountability, sin and become guilty before God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Doesn’t it seem a bit strange that Adam sinned without ever losing his eternal standing before God according to at least one on the board, yet passed on a nature to his whole posterity, and that without exception, that absolutely necessitates one being a sinner from birth and as such deserving of separation from God for eternity? If we are guilty and stand eternally condemned due to Adam’s sin, why did not Adam himself stand eternally condemned for his own sin? Is that not the epitome of a double standard, making it more severe on his posterity, that never had a choice in the matter, than the perpetrator of the sin himself?

 

[Amy.G]

Doesn’t it seem a bit strange that Adam sinned without ever losing his eternal standing before God according to at least one on the board, yet passed on a nature to his whole posterity, and that without exception, that absolutely necessitates one being a sinner from birth and as such deserving of separation from God for eternity? If we are guilty and stand eternally condemned due to Adam’s sin, why did not Adam himself stand eternally condemned for his own sin? Is that not the epitome of a double standard, making it more severe on his posterity, that never had a choice in the matter, than the perpetrator of the sin himself?

That just about sums it up. :thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Make no mistake there is plenty in your last posts I disagree with that I could point out, but I feel it better to highlight a clear statement of truth in which we could find great agreement. The thing we need to see clearly is there is a big difference between a tendency to sin, or a proclivity to sin, and sin itself. Sin is when we allow our wills to voluntarily transgress against a known commandment of God by the formation of selfish intents. The problem comes in when one tries to make yielding a necessity (as original sin implies) eliminating voluntary choice in the process. By eliminating choice moral agency and moral responsibility is destroyed. A proclivity to sin is not sin in and of itself, but rather signifies a temptation to sin.

If ones propensity to sin becomes so strong that yielding to selfishness is in fact unavoidable, such a one is not a moral agent and cannot be held accountable for intents formed subsequent to necessity becoming a reality. One must be able to do something other than what one does, under the very same circumstances, for choice and or moral praise or blame to be predicated.
Here is how I might formulate a doctrine to speak to the way we are born. All men are born with a proclivity to sin, and all who come to the age of accountability, sin and become guilty before God.

I would like to add that if our sin nature causes us to sin, what caused Adam to sin when he did not have a sin nature? I have asked this before but got no answer that I recall. It is obvious that one is able to sin even without having a sin nature.

 

[Amy.G]

DHK: You must believe that one must be born again many times, not just one.

No I do not. Adam was born once when he was created. He was born again when God atoned for his sin by shedding innocent blood on his behalf. He received it by faith (in a redeemer that was to come, Gen. 3:15) just like we do.

DHK: We all are born with a sin nature. We are not born sinless.

DHK: He is guilty as soon as he is born.

Then we are all born sinners and under it's condemnation. If a baby is not sinless, then he is a sinner until he accepts Christ as Savior. If he dies before he is able to have faith, he will go to hell. This is the logical end to what you are saying. Or do you believe that babies are saved some other way than we are, some other way than faith in Christ.

How do you interpret this verse:

Rom 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

What does Paul mean by "I was alive once"?




Adam did not lose "fellowship" with God. He lost everything.

 

[DHK]

Doesn’t it seem a bit strange that Adam sinned without ever losing his eternal standing before God according to at least one on the board, yet passed on a nature to his whole posterity, and that without exception, that absolutely necessitates one being a sinner from birth and as such deserving of separation from God for eternity? If we are guilty and stand eternally condemned due to Adam’s sin, why did not Adam himself stand eternally condemned for his own sin? Is that not the epitome of a double standard, making it more severe on his posterity, that never had a choice in the matter, than the perpetrator of the sin himself?

"losing his eternal standing before God....
Which poster said that? Would you care to be specific?
Before a person can be "saved" he must first be "lost."
Adam was never "lost" in the first place. The only thing that he "lost" so-called, was his fellowship with God, not what you are calling salvation. He didn't need to be saved, just as the angels in heaven don't need salvation. A created being needs no salvation, unless that being has been condemned by God. Adam was not. He was disobedient to God, but not condemned for all eternity.

I find it odd that there are so many here making claims without any Scriptural evidence. Where does the Bible say that Adam lost his "salvation" and will not be in heaven? Demonstrate that through the Scripture instead of philosophy.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

"losing his eternal standing before God....
Which poster said that? Would you care to be specific?
Before a person can be "saved" he must first be "lost."
Adam was never "lost" in the first place. The only thing that he "lost" so-called, was his fellowship with God, not what you are calling salvation. He didn't need to be saved, just as the angels in heaven don't need salvation. A created being needs no salvation, unless that being has been condemned by God. Adam was not. He was disobedient to God, but not condemned for all eternity.

HP: In post #2, before anything was said about Adam and salvation, you said the following.” DHK: ”They never lost their salvation. They remained the children of God.”
How should the reader of known what you believed from reading your post? I agree that no salvation is needed until sin enters. Just the same, sin entered and Adam fell from his first estate. Outside of God revealing a plan of redemption to Adam and Eve, all hope of eternal life with God was lost at first bite. An atonement had to be made to secure their salvation. To say, as you have here, that God had not condemned him, is simply contrary to Scripture. Disobedience to a known commandment of God always brings condemnation by God.

If we are to believe what you have said, Adam was indeed OSAS or once in grace always in grace, or once a child of God always a child of God. Call it what you will, it amounts to the same thing. According to the picture you paint, Adam was not lost nor could he have been. He was safe with God regardless of his willful disobedience. The scenario you paint runs absolutely counter to the teachings of the Word of God on the penalty for sin. You are painting a picture of being able to sin with impunity from the very penalty God attached to disobedience, i.e., eternal separation from God. Show us one place in Scripture that states or implies that the penalty for sin is a loss of temporary fellowship with God or a loss of rewards.

DHK: I find it odd that there are so many here making claims without any Scriptural evidence. Where does the Bible say that Adam lost his "salvation" and will not be in heaven?

HP: Please show us one person that has made any such claim. I certainly have not stated that nor have I read any that have.

DHK: Demonstrate that through the Scripture instead of philosophy.

HP: Demonstrate via Scripture instead of mere conjecture your claim that Adam was not condemned by God for his sin.

Better yet, explain how we can inherit a nature from Adam that births us estranged from God, as you clearly imply with your insistence of original sin, when in fact, according to you, he was never in a state that could have cost him eternal separation and death? Tell us why God would judge every living being from birth to eternal death for something that did not cause eternal separation from God, according to how I am reading what you have written. If Adams spiritual nature was always in a sound eternal relationship, without possibility of eternal damnation for his sin, how could he have passed onto his posterity anything other than the same nature that He had, even subsequent to the fall? Was not his nature according to you once a child always a child of God, or once a son always a son, or once in grace always in grace?

 

[DHK]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: (ASV)

Does a child of God lose his salvation? Yes or no.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: (ASV)

Does a child of God lose his salvation? Yes or no.

HP: There is a man walking along a cliff. Tell me DHK, does he fall off? Yes or no?

 

[Amy.G]

There are only two options that I can see. We are either born condemned or we become condemned at some point in our lives.

I say we are born a child of God, not condemned, but when we sin willfully against God (age of accountability) we become condemned and need a Savior. Christ redeems us back to God through faith in Him.

The word "redeem" means to buy back or recover something that was lost.

The unbeliever is lost. He needs to be bought back by God. The question is, how did he get lost? Was he born lost? If so, then he never was a child of God. How does someone who never belonged to God in the first place get redeemed or bought back??

In order to be redeemed, one must have belonged to God at some point. Infants belong to God. One willful sin and he becomes lost. He must be "bought back". That is why it is said that Christ paid the price for us. He redeemed us or bought us back.

Adam was redeemed, just as we are. He was "not guilty", then he sinned and became "guilty" or condemned. God shed blood to buy him back.

To say that Adam was "saved" before he sinned is incorrect. The word "saved" implies that one is rescued from something. In our case, we are rescued from death. But death only comes by a willful transgression against God. This is what Paul says:

Rom 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

DHK, you never did tell me what this verse means.



Paul also says:
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

How did death spread to all men? Did it spread to all men because Adam sinned and his guilt was passed to all men?
No, it spread to all men because ALL men sinned. All receive the death sentence when they sin and not before. Otherwise, all men are punished for the sin of another. We are not condemned for Adam's sin. We are condemned for our own sin.
The Bible makes it clear that we are accountable to God for our sins only, and not the sins of others.

We do suffer consequences for Adam's sin as evidenced in the fact that we all die, but that is not the same thing as being found guilty and sentenced to death. Sin has far reaching effects. When I sin, it doesn't just affect me, it hurts those around me. But God doesn't hold them accountable for my sin, even though they may suffer because of it.
We suffer because of Adam's sin, but the guilt and condemnation of his sin falls squarely on his shoulders alone. The guilt on my sin falls on my shoulders alone.

When Adam sinned against God, he required salvation because he needed to be saved from the death sentence.
Gen 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

 

[DHK]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: (ASV)

Does a child of God lose his salvation? Yes or no.

That was a hard question never answered with a direct answer.

Can a child of God lose his salvation? Yes or no?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: That was a hard question never answered with a direct answer.

Can a child of God lose his salvation? Yes or no?

HP: The reason it was not originally answered directly was because it could not be answered sensibly the way it was worded. The way you worded it now is a leading question due to the fact it presupposes that salvation is finalized for eternity in a one time act, which it is not. The question should not be whether or not one can lose their salvation, but rather will they be found in Christ in the last day on the path they are on. If the path one is on is one of faith and obedience, one can indeed be assured by faith that one will be found in Christ in that day. If one finds that they are on the path of disobedience and sin, one needs to take a careful inventory of their actions and repent and turn from their sin while there is still time.

There is certainly no reason why one that has entered into a hope of eternal life would have to fall or turn from it, but Scripture is clear and replete with warnings. One indeed can turn from the path of obedience, make shipwreck of their faith, and be lost in the end.