Did God will for man to sin?

[evangelist6589]

I was listening to a podcast yesterday from a prominent bible teacher. I like this guy and have many of his books. However what he said yesterday and on todays podcast made me mad. Well according to this teacher the fall did not ruin God's plan, as it was a part of his plan if I remember correctly. I cant find this view in the scriptures. Calvinist usually try and explain away certain Bible verses like 2 Pet 3:9, 1 John 2:2, among others to fit into their 16th century system. Calvinist will be quick to call me an Armenian of which I am not because that is a unbiblical system as well. Regardless you cant fit the Bible into a "system" and interpret it to fit into a "system."

 

[revmwc]

I was listening to a podcast yesterday from a prominent bible teacher. I like this guy and have many of his books. However what he said yesterday and on todays podcast made me mad. Well according to this teacher the fall did not ruin God's plan, as it was a part of his plan if I remember correctly. I cant find this view in the scriptures. Calvinist usually try and explain away certain Bible verses like 2 Pet 3:9, 1 John 2:2, among others to fit into their 16th century system. Calvinist will be quick to call me an Armenian of which I am not because that is a unbiblical system as well. Regardless you cant fit the Bible into a "system" and interpret it to fit into a "system."

God did not will man to sin. God knew man would sin before He created Him and instituted a plan for man's salvation, guess when before the foundation of the earth. So no it was not God's desired will for man to sin. Did God allow man to sin would that be His permissive will?

 

[jbh28]

The fall was part of God's plan. Anything short of that is an attack on His sovereignty. Jesus Christ is not plan B, He is Plan A. God did not allow sin simply because he knew it would happen, but because it was part of God's plan to redeem lost sinners. God will defeat sin and there will be no more sin one day. God yes is grieved by sin, but it was still his plan to have sin be in the world. If it wasn't His plan, He wouldn't have allowed it in the first place.


evangelist6589, who were you listening to?

 

[revmwc]

The fall was part of God's plan. Anything short of that is an attack on His sovereignty. Jesus Christ is not plan B, He is Plan A. God did not allow sin simply because he knew it would happen, but because it was part of God's plan to redeem lost sinners. God will defeat sin and there will be no more sin one day. God yes is grieved by sin, but it was still his plan to have sin be in the world. If it wasn't His plan, He wouldn't have allowed it in the first place.


evangelist6589, who were you listening to?

God's plan with man was to solve the Angelic Conflict. Man was created for that purpose, therefore man falling into sin was part of His plan, but my point is He knew man would fall and therefore made the provision for man's salvation based on what He knew would happen not as areaction to it happening.

 

[preachinjesus]

Man, that is Adam and Eve, was not determined, or willed, by God to sin.

All men possess free moral agency and are not determined by God to ever sin.

 

[revmwc]

Man, that is Adam and Eve, was not determined, or willed, by God to sin.

All men possess free moral agency and are not determined by God to ever sin.

Yet God knew they would just as He knows our heart and what we will do. An Amazing God that He still loved us huh?

 

[kyredneck]

Man, that is Adam and Eve, was not determined, or willed, by God to sin.

All men possess free moral agency and are not determined by God to ever sin.

I agree.

It is my humble opinion that God, knowing the iniquity that lied within Lucifer, provoked him to jealousy by putting man in the garden. I believe Satan had not actually openly rebelled until he tempted Eve. And we all know the 'rest of the story' from there.

It is consistently demonstrated within the types of the scriptures that the first(born) is always jealous of the second(born), and then the enmity between the two ensues, i.e., Cain & Abel, Ishmael & Issac, Esau & Jacob, Leah & Rachel, Saul & David, the Jews & the Gentiles, etc.. Lucifer was in Eden before God created Adam, he was first, then along came Adam, Adam was second. God KNEW what Satan would do just as He knew the Jews would be provoked to jealousy with the appearing of His Son and the incoming of the Gentiles to the kingdom.

 

[revmwc]

I agree.

It is my humble opinion that God, knowing the iniquity that lied within Lucifer, provoked him to jealousy by putting man in the garden. I believe Satan had not actually openly rebelled until he tempted Eve. And we all know the 'rest of the story' from there.

It is consistently demonstrated within the types of the scriptures that the first(born) is always jealous of the second(born), and then the enmity between the two ensues, i.e., Cain & Abel, Ishmael & Issac, Esau & Jacob, Leah & Rachel, Saul & David, the Jews & the Gentiles, etc.. Lucifer was in Eden before God created Adam, he was first, then along came Adam, Adam was second. God KNEW what Satan would do just as He knew the Jews would be provoked to jealousy with the appearing of His Son and the incoming of the Gentiles to the kingdom.

How was Satan in the Garden when God created it all in a 6 - 24 hour period and God placed man there a day or two after He created Earth and vegitatin and animals?

 

[Amy.G]

What??? God created man to make angels jealous? To solve some angelic conflict??

Hebrews 2:7
You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And set him over the works of Your hands.

Man is God's most loved creation. He is the only creature made in God's image. Christ did not come in the likeness of angels, but in the likeness of man. Man is the only created thing in which God said it is "very good". And man will judge the angels.

 

[Iconoclast]

I was listening to a podcast yesterday from a prominent bible teacher. I like this guy and have many of his books. However what he said yesterday and on todays podcast made me mad. Well according to this teacher the fall did not ruin God's plan, as it was a part of his plan if I remember correctly. I cant find this view in the scriptures. [B]Calvinist usually try and explain away certain Bible verses like 2 Pet 3:9, 1 John 2:2, among others to fit into their 16th century system. [/B]

Calvinists understand these scriptures

Well according to this teacher the fall did not ruin God's plan, as it was a part of his plan if I remember correctly. I cant find this view in the scriptures. [

If you think calvinists do not understand these verses you are not going to find his view in scripture either. It is in scripture....but you will not see it:thumbs:

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Creation would not have taken place unless Jesus as mediator was already in place....God having planned on the fall.:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[kyredneck]

How was Satan in the Garden when God created it all in a 6 - 24 hour period and God placed man there a day or two after He created Earth and vegitatin and animals?

12......Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou wast in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was in thee; in the day that thou wast created they were prepared.
14 Thou wast the anointed cherub that covereth: and I set thee, so that thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee. Ezek

 

[revmwc]

What??? God created man to make angels jealous? To solve some angelic conflict??

Hebrews 2:7
You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And set him over the works of Your hands.

Man is God's most loved creation. He is the only creature made in God's image. Christ did not come in the likeness of angels, but in the likeness of man. Man is the only created thing in which God said it is "very good". And man will judge the angels.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

 

[preacher4truth]

I was listening to a podcast yesterday from a prominent bible teacher. I like this guy and have many of his books. However what he said yesterday and on todays podcast made me mad. Well according to this teacher the fall did not ruin God's plan, as it was a part of his plan if I remember correctly. I cant find this view in the scriptures. Calvinist usually try and explain away certain Bible verses like 2 Pet 3:9, 1 John 2:2, among others to fit into their 16th century system. Calvinist will be quick to call me an Armenian of which I am not because that is a unbiblical system as well. Regardless you cant fit the Bible into a "system" and interpret it to fit into a "system."

I can't see how that should make you angry. Perhaps a better, more comprehensive Biblical view of God is in order for you? God is Sovereign over all things, and Omniscient, knowing all things past, present, future. And yes, He created knowing 'full well' yet so many are shocked by this. The faulty 'God is Love' movement has ruined the truth about all that God is, and people faint when they are exposed to the reality of this and are shocked, and some get mad about it.

I'm one glad 'Calvinist' that came to embrace these truths. I wasn't taught it by man, I was prompted by a man who brought it to my attention in one sitting, and found out these truths by studying Scripture, and humbled and in awe, I accepted it because it is truth.

 

[revmwc]

12......Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou wast in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was in thee; in the day that thou wast created they were prepared.
14 Thou wast the anointed cherub that covereth: and I set thee, so that thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee. Ezek

Sure he was there when he tempted mankind but at the same time as man.

 

[kyredneck]

What??? God created man to make angels jealous?

That's not quite what I said my opinion was. I believe God intentionally inserted Adam into the garden and gave him dominion over the earth knowing full well that it would provoke Satan to jealousy.

 

[revmwc]

What??? God created man to make angels jealous? To solve some angelic conflict??

Hebrews 2:7
You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And set him over the works of Your hands.

Man is God's most loved creation. He is the only creature made in God's image. Christ did not come in the likeness of angels, but in the likeness of man. Man is the only created thing in which God said it is "very good". And man will judge the angels.

Check this out

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=71866

 

[revmwc]

That's not quite what I said my opinion was. I believe God intentionally inserted Adam into the garden and gave him dominion over the earth knowing that it would provoke Satan to jealousy.

That would go along with those who teach that somewhere in eternity past Satan fell and was cast to an earth created in Genesis 1:1 that once satan was sent here then God covered it with ice since Angels hate ice. Then God saw it was void and without form and renovated that earth in the 6 day cycle and placed man here.

The Pastor I grew up under taught that and not sure where he got that teaching.

 

[kyredneck]

That would go along with those who teach that somewhere in eternity past Satan fell and was cast to an earth created in Genesis 1:1 that once satan was sent here then God covered it with ice since Angels hate ice. Then God saw it was void and without form and renovated that earth in the 6 day cycle and placed man here.

The Pastor I grew up under taught that and not sure where he got that teaching.

I lean towards an old earth and Genesis acccount being a 'restoration'.

But my point is that God did not determine sin in man beforehand, but He created man knowing full well what would happen due to the animosity/jealousy that Satan would harbor.

I'm of the opinion that Satan's temptation of Eve was his first open act of rebellion.

 

[jbh28]

God's plan with man was to solve the Angelic Conflict. Man was created for that purpose, therefore man falling into sin was part of His plan, but my point is He knew man would fall and therefore made the provision for man's salvation based on what He knew would happen not as areaction to it happening.

You seem to be saying that Christ wasn't part of God's original plan. I would agree that man falling into sin was part of the plan. I would also say Christ redeeming us was also part of that plan.

I might just be confusing your wording. It seems people on this subject are usually a lot closer than it would appear.

 

[revmwc]

I lean towards an old earth and Genesis acccount being a 'restoration'.

But my point is that God did not determine sin in man beforehand, but He created man knowing full well what would happen.

I'm of the opinion that Satan's temptation of Eve was his first open act of rebellion.

I believe God Foreknew what would occur. But I believe Satan had already rebeled when man was created.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

The Doctrine of the Angelic conflict teaches that Satan has been sentenced to hell and the lake of Fire. Man is here to prove to Satan that God is just and fair in that sentence. Does God have to prove Himself just and fair, no way. Would a just and fair God want to prove the sentence to be just and fair? Man was created given volition and God provided the means of salvation by Grace Through Faith to show satan just how Just and Fair God really is.