Did God will for man to sin?

[jbh28]

Well according to this teacher the fall did not ruin God's plan, as it was a part of his plan if I remember correctly.

If the fall ruined God's plan, God is not sovereign.

 

[preachinjesus]

How was Satan in the Garden when God created it all in a 6 - 24 hour period and God placed man there a day or two after He created Earth and vegitatin and animals?

Who says the angelic assembly was not in place, ontologically, before the creation of this metaphysical plane?

Also, I dismiss the belief that Adam and Eve were created and had the Garden by Day 6 and then on Day 8 sinned. There is nothing in the text which tells us it was so.

Perhaps they enjoyed thousands of years of fellowship with God in the unique state. Perhaps they enjoyed fellowship with each other for a lengthy time and then fell. This makes the reality of the Fall even more dramatic.

I just think there is more going on in the text than our limited reads often allow.

 

[Iconoclast]

The fall was part of God's plan. Anything short of that is an attack on His sovereignty. Jesus Christ is not plan B, He is Plan A. God did not allow sin simply because he knew it would happen, but because it was part of God's plan to redeem lost sinners. God will defeat sin and there will be no more sin one day. God yes is grieved by sin, but it was still his plan to have sin be in the world. If it wasn't His plan, He wouldn't have allowed it in the first place.


evangelist6589, who were you listening to?

:thumbsup::wavey::thumbs:

 

[kyredneck]

I believe God Foreknew what would occur. But I believe Satan had already rebeled when man was created.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

The Doctrine of the Angelic conflict teaches that Satan has been sentenced to hell and the lake of Fire. Man is here to prove to Satan that God is just and fair in that sentence. Does God have to prove Himself just and fair, no way. Would a just and fair God want to prove the sentence to be just and fair? Man was created given volition and God provided the means of salvation by Grace Through Faith to show satan just how Just and Fair God really is.

OK. But this still doesn't show that Satan had openly rebelled prior to Adam. In fact, from Job we gather he still had access to heaven at that time (time of Job).

 

[revmwc]

You seem to be saying that Christ wasn't part of God's original plan. I would agree that man falling into sin was part of the plan. I would also say Christ redeeming us was also part of that plan.

I might just be confusing your wording. It seems people on this subject are usually a lot closer than it would appear.

Since God is Omniscient He has always known man would fall and need a Saviour. Scripture says 1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world. God knew man would sin and God Foreordained the means of Salvation by Faith in Christ for all those who would receive Him as their savior.

 

[kyredneck]

<double post>

 

[revmwc]

OK. But this still doesn't show that Satan had openly rebelled prior to Adam. In fact, from Job we gather he still had access to heaven at that time.

He still has access to heaven currently. That hasn't changed yet. But it will. Revelation 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

John is seeing things to come Revelation 4:
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter

So satan has yet to be cast fully out of heaven.

Job states Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

and Christ said satan ask toe sift the disciples.

 

[revmwc]

Who says the angelic assembly was not in place, ontologically, before the creation of this metaphysical plane?

Also, I dismiss the belief that Adam and Eve were created and had the Garden by Day 6 and then on Day 8 sinned. There is nothing in the text which tells us it was so.

Perhaps they enjoyed thousands of years of fellowship with God in the unique state. Perhaps they enjoyed fellowship with each other for a lengthy time and then fell. This makes the reality of the Fall even more dramatic.

I just think there is more going on in the text than our limited reads often allow.

I didn't say they sinned on day 8 noone knows how long they were in the garden. I know according to the Jewish calender we are in the year 5772 which is based on the fall of Adam.

 

[kyredneck]

He still has access to heaven currently.....

17 And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject unto us in thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall in any wise hurt you.
20 Nevertheless in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven. Lu 10

The warfare in heaven of Rev 12 was mirrored on earth at the time of Christ and the apostles and early church. Satan has been defeated already.

Now, just when he is loosed again, that's another matter.

 

[percho]

Sure he was there when he tempted mankind but at the same time as man.

I agree with you rev.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness upon the face of the deep. Why? Because of the presence of Satan. Then God comes on the scene; And begins to renew the face of the earth, for the coming of the kingdom of God at least six thousand years into the future, devoid of Satan who has the power of death.

Let there be light and there was light. And God saw the light, that good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Christians even today are translated from the kingdom of darkness into the light of the kingdom of God.


IMHO And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; (Satan was already there) and there he put the man whom he had formed.

The Lamb was slain already even before the man Adam, the type of the one to come Jesus the Lamb of God, was created.

Man was created lower than the angels, able to die, put in the presence of Satan the deceiver, sinned and brought death to mankind for the very purpose of God in destroying Satan who has the power of death.

The last enemy shall be destroyed, death.

 

[revmwc]

17 And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject unto us in thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall in any wise hurt you.
20 Nevertheless in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven. Lu 10

The warfare in heaven of Rev 12 was mirrored on earth at the time of Christ and the apostles and early church. Satan has been defeated already.

Now, just when he is loosed again, that's another matter.

Since when has he been bound? It says satan fell from heaven that had occured when he welled up in pride. He had fallen when he appeared before God in the book of Job yet he had access to heaven. Revelation 12 says he will be cast down and out access denied.

Satan is defeated and already sentenced but the sentence hasn't been carried out why? Because as the Angelic Conflict doctrine teaches his appeal is still in effect. The appeal that God is not just nor fair and man is showing just how just and fair God is.

 

[Winman]

If God planned for man to sin, then why was he grieved when men did just what God planned?

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

It does not make sense that God would plan or intend men to sin, and then be grieved for man doing the very thing he planned and intended.

Can God be grieved that his own will was carried out?

 

[jbh28]

Can God be grieved that his own will was carried out?

Yes, because he had bigger plans. God is sovereign and if he didn't want sin, there wouldn't have been sin. God is bigger than sin. God will defeat sin one day once and for all.


This may not be the best analogy, but there is one good point to it.(and only one, don't read into it because it will fail on all other points) Do you like pain? No, but you get pain when you exercise. You use the pain to your advantage to get strong. God uses man's sin for His purpose. (Genesis 50:20)

 

[Winman]

Yes, because he had bigger plans. God is sovereign and if he didn't want sin, there wouldn't have been sin. God is bigger than sin. God will defeat sin one day once and for all.


This may not be the best analogy, but there is one good point to it.(and only one, don't read into it because it will fail on all other points) Do you like pain? No, but you get pain when you exercise. You use the pain to your advantage to get strong. God uses man's sin for His purpose. (Genesis 50:20)

It still does not make sense that God would plan and intend for man to sin and then be grieved when man does the very thing he planned and intended.

And your pain analogy does not fit the situation. If I were a bodybuilder, I would plan and intend that I over-exert my muscles to build them up. I know there will be pain, I plan on it, it fits my design and purpose. I would not be grieved when I felt the pain I planned and intended.

It simply does not make sense that God was grieved with man's sin if he intended and planned for man to sin.

 

[revmwc]

It still does not make sense that God would plan and intend for man to sin and then be grieved when man does the very thing he planned and intended.

And your pain analogy does not fit the situation. If I were a bodybuilder, I would plan and intend that I over-exert my muscles to build them up. I know there will be pain, I plan on it, it fits my design and purpose. I would not be grieved when I felt the pain I planned and intended.

It simply does not make sense that God was grieved with man's sin if he intended and planned for man to sin.

As a parent you want the best for your child and yet they make decisions that grieve you all the time. Here is a for instance a young man had an operation on his ear and was told that he could not swim because he would black out if water were to get in his ear. He ask the Dr. if he could surf and was told yes. You as a parent tell him no he can't go surfing and he says but the DR. said I could. You know what will happen if your child goes surfing. While on his senior trip he is allowed to go surfing by school officals and drowns. You as parent wrned him not to go but you didn't stop him from going and you are saddened and grieved over the disobedience and death of your child. Yet because he had the volition to make that choice he is gone. You are grieved at something you knew would happen and yet knew it was coming if he disobeyed and it happened doesn't take your grief away, doesn't take the pain away. That is how God is with our sin He knew it was going to happen but He loves us and grieves because we disobey.

 

[Winman]

As a parent you want the best for your child and yet they make decisions that grieve you all the time. Here is a for instance a young man had an operation on his ear and was told that he could not swim because he would black out if water were to get in his ear. He ask the Dr. if he could surf and was told yes. You as a parent tell him no he can't go surfing and he says but the DR. said I could. You know what will happen if your child goes surfing. While on his senior trip he is allowed to go surfing by school officals and drowns. You as parent wrned him not to go but you didn't stop him from going and you are saddened and grieved over the disobedience and death of your child. Yet because he had the volition to make that choice he is gone. You are grieved at something you knew would happen and yet knew it was coming if he disobeyed and it happened doesn't take your grief away, doesn't take the pain away. That is how God is with our sin He knew it was going to happen but He loves us and grieves because we disobey.

Knowing is not the issue. Planning and intending is the issue. You didn't plan and intend for your son to drown.

The OP asks if it is God's will that men sin. I say NO. God never wanted men to sin, just as you would never desire your children to sin, even though you knew they would sin before you had them.

I have 8 children, I knew quite well each one would sin, but I never planned or intended them to sin. It was never my WILL that they sin.

 

[revmwc]

Knowing is not the issue. Planning and intending is the issue. You didn't plan and intend for your son to drown.

The OP asks if it is God's will that men sin. I say NO. God never wanted men to sin, just as you would never desire your children to sin, even though you knew they would sin before you had them.

I have 8 children, I knew quite well each one would sin, but I never planned or intended them to sin. It was never my WILL that they sin.

I believe God in His foreknowledge knew we would doesn't stop Him from grieving because we do.

 

[jbh28]

It still does not make sense that God would plan and intend for man to sin and then be grieved when man does the very thing he planned and intended.

If he has a greater desire, sure it does.

And your pain analogy does not fit the situation. If I were a bodybuilder, I would plan and intend that I over-exert my muscles to build them up. I know there will be pain, I plan on it, it fits my design and purpose. I would not be grieved when I felt the pain I planned and intended.

as I said, only had one point. don't read into my analogy.

It simply does not make sense that God was grieved with man's sin if he intended and planned for man to sin.

Well, making sense isn't where we get our theology from. God is sovereign. If he didn't want sin int he world, he wouldn't have allowed it in the first place. God uses sin for his purpose (Genesis 50:20). As I pointed out in my analogy(the one and only point you were to look at) we use pain(something we probably don't want to have, at least for me) to get something we do want(stronger body). God uses sin(something he doesn't want) to get a something he does want(like Christ redeeming the world of sin).

What it seems that some advocate is that God would have rather had a world that was sinless, but was unable to get that done. His plan was that there would be no sin, but man changed God's plan. This makes God to look weak and most definitively attacks his sovereignty. And it's more that just God knowing that man would sin. Sin was part of God's plan. God doesn't sin, He doesn't temp people to sin. He knows that man will sin. It's all part of his sovereign plan.

 

[Winman]

Here is my own analogy;

Let's say your 22 year old son is a motorcycle stunt driver. He wants to jump over 25 cars like Evil Knievel used to do. You know in your heart that your son is not capable of performing this dangerous stunt and repeatedly beg him not to attempt it. But he is a grown adult who can make his own decisions and you cannot stop him.

So, what do you do? You know in advance he is going to attempt this stunt, and you are pretty certain he is going to crash. So, before he actually makes the jump, you make sure there is a team of emergency medical personel to help him when he crashes. When he crashes, they can immediately tend to him and hopefully prevent him from dying.

This is how I think it was, God knew we would sin, and he planned ahead and had a Savior ready to save us when we did. But he never intended or planned for us to sin in any way, just as you did not plan or intend for your son to perform this dangerous stunt.

 

[jbh28]

I believe God in His foreknowledge knew we would doesn't stop Him from grieving because we do.

God doesn't like sin at all. He hates sin. He uses sin for his purposes. (Genesis 50:20). God could have stopped sin, but has a bigger purpose for allowing it.