convicted1
Guest
Now you guys are just gettin' weird.
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Did God will for man to sin?
- Thread starter evangelist6589
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Couldn't care less. RB's a dime a dozen bro. Reggie signed some kid to a future contract, Rashawn Jackson I think, must see something in him, plus we have Taiwan Jones, DMAC.
Matt Forte is whining about signing Bush... :laugh:
possibility of obedience.
Do you not find it incredibly mind blowing out of the billions of humans not one other than Jesus, has been obedient to God? Not one. What does that tell you about your free will?
Possibility? 0 to 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
You get the idea.
Dependence upon the obedience of faith of Jesus the Christ unto death even the death on the cross, paying the penalty for sin and receiving the promise of the hope of eternal life, allowing for death to be destroyed, the first man Adam and those born of man and woman after him, could be born again.
By grace are ye saved through the faith, it is the gift of God. For the wages of sin death; but the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It got at least this close not happening.
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (Of not being obedient unto death even the death on the cross.) Not my will but thine.
I haven't, have you? Jesus did.
By grace are ye saved through the faith, it is the gift of God. For the wages of sin death; but the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It got at least this close not happening.
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (Of not being obedient unto death even the death on the cross.) Not my will but thine.
I haven't, have you? Jesus did.
So no love nor obedience in heaven....?
You do realize the heretical nature of this statement. You just denied the omnipotence and sovereignty of God.
That means they have a purpose, not that they cannot be pervented. That's outright denying God's sovereignty.
Calvinist would believe that God is in control and man is free to make autonomous decisions and actions. you should know this. However, this doesn't change that you said that God is unable to prevent sin.
Denying God's sovereignty. God could have stopped sin. he will stop sin.
so i guess we will be "mindless robots" in heaven.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Sin was found not created or predetermined.
Ezekiel 28 :
12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
God knew we would sin He gave us a free agency. God can't sin nor tempt us to sin, we did it on our own and God used it for the good of those who love Him, for His purpose. I truly believe God will not create anything without a free agency or He would of done it. It isn't that He can't, it is just not His will.
I believe the angels was getting pretty high on themselves and started loving what was made themselves over the Creator.
So God created man to humble the angels and while He preparing the place for man.
Lucifer got upset and said angels is the greatest creation God doesn't need man and he got a third of the angels on his side.
God hearing the commotion in heaven went there and said what are you doing.
Lucifer said what he said and God said, "those who are with me stand with my Son" and those who are not stood behind Lucifer. A third of the angels stood with Lucifer and God cast them down and out from His presence and continued what He was doing with preparing the place for man and created them.
Lucifer now Satan hates man with a burning rage and blames man for where he is, not God and not himself. Satan is out to prove to God that He shouldn't of created man.
Our rebellion will always separate us from our God and only in Jesus Christ we will be safe and saved from the wrath to come and that is predetermined
It is a story that you can decide what you want to do with it, I do know that Satan hates us with a burning rage and is out to prove to God that He should of never created us and is our accuser.
Ezekiel 28 :
12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
God knew we would sin He gave us a free agency. God can't sin nor tempt us to sin, we did it on our own and God used it for the good of those who love Him, for His purpose. I truly believe God will not create anything without a free agency or He would of done it. It isn't that He can't, it is just not His will.
I believe the angels was getting pretty high on themselves and started loving what was made themselves over the Creator.
So God created man to humble the angels and while He preparing the place for man.
Lucifer got upset and said angels is the greatest creation God doesn't need man and he got a third of the angels on his side.
God hearing the commotion in heaven went there and said what are you doing.
Lucifer said what he said and God said, "those who are with me stand with my Son" and those who are not stood behind Lucifer. A third of the angels stood with Lucifer and God cast them down and out from His presence and continued what He was doing with preparing the place for man and created them.
Lucifer now Satan hates man with a burning rage and blames man for where he is, not God and not himself. Satan is out to prove to God that He shouldn't of created man.
Our rebellion will always separate us from our God and only in Jesus Christ we will be safe and saved from the wrath to come and that is predetermined
It is a story that you can decide what you want to do with it, I do know that Satan hates us with a burning rage and is out to prove to God that He should of never created us and is our accuser.
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Heretical according to whom? You? You should think twice before you judge others, what if turns out you are wrong and they are correct?
I do not deny God's omnipotence or sovereignty, I just understand it differently than you.
No, Jesus said offenses "must needs be". They are necessary. The word "must" shows they must occur. God never desires sin to occur, but it must occur.
As usual, your statement is a contradiction and cannot be true. If man makes autonomous decisions and actions, then God is not in control of these autonomous decisions and actions, men are doing these of their own free will. But I do believe God can keep man under control easily. It is like a game of chess, my opponent moves where he wills, but to a great degree (if I am a good player) I can control or influence his moves. Still, within the options available, my opponent can move where he wills.
Not if he has given men free will, which you cannot seem to grasp. He could kill a man before he sins, but that would be unjust. Therefore a man must be able to sin. He could then justly kill the man and stop further sin.
Some folks are mindless now.
Paul was a WILLING servant. He was not compelled or forced to serve God, he desired to. As a Christian you are not compelled or forced to obey either, you can disobey if you so choose. No?
I have probably given this far more thought than you. Jesus said he would make us free, not slaves. Free means you obey because you desire to obey of your own free will, not compelled or forced to obey. Look up the definition of "free".
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What about Sodom and Gomorrah? Did God destroy people who had never sinned? What about the flood? Did God destroy people who had never sinned? Was He unjust?
The bible
I'm not judging you first of all. Second I can judge you based on your words. Third, I was attempting to be kind and give you a chance to change your statement since it appeared to be heretical. You said, " In fact, God cannot stop sin." Which denies God's sovereignty if God "can't"(meaning unable) to stop something.
You denied it when you said that something was not possible for God to do. You denied God's omnipotence when you said there was something God "can't" do.
Hmmm...sound EXACTLY like what I said. I said that they are part of God's plan and purpose to get what he wants done, yet he hates sin. What I'm hoping that you are not meaning is that the "must needs be" are from outside of God. That is where a problem will be.
God is always in control doesn't equal God always making every decision. nothing is outside of God's control.
Man is under God's control. (period) You have portrayed a God that is not sovereign. He wants man do do something, but is unable to get it done. now I do believe God allows man to do things, but it's still God allowing the event to be done, not that God is unable to stop him.
First, I can grasp free will. . Second, you are denying that God is omnipotent and sovereign right here. This is very false. God could have stopped evil(otherwise he isn't sovereign) God will stop evil. Unless of course you believe there will be evil in heaven.
i'm sure there are, but what does this have to do with what you said.
We will never sin in heaven, so therefore we must be "mindless robots" in heaven according to your statement.
Of course, but Paul said he was a slave to God. We all have a master. It's either the devil or God. No man can serve two masters. That doesn't man that Paul was serving God unwillingly. Don't confuse "slave" with that which we had here in America.
Any reason for the Ad hominem? Let's keep this civil shall we? You have no clue as to how much thought I've put into this. I've been very gracious to you as I've given you a chance to pull back your heretical statement and explain it.
Ok, but again, you are way off topic. I don't believe people obey unwillingly. I've never said that nor ever believed that.
But let's get back to the point. You have made the claim that "God cannot stop sin." That denies God's sovereignty and omnipotence. If God is unable to do something, then he isn't sovereign. Second, this statement would mean that God will never defeat evil. Satan would win.
I'm trying to be kind to you the best I can. You seem to be taking free will to heretical levels. Don't be so eager to disagree with me. Anyone can take doctrine too far(like hyper calvinist). I'm trying to keep you from doing that.
quantumfaith
Active Member
JBH, though I agree with you with regarding to be cautious about saying what God "cannot" do, is it "incorrect" to say that there is anything God "cannot" do? I.E. Is it incorrect in your mind to say that God "cannot" sin? I feel confident that you would agree. Perhaps, it would have been better for WM to say that God "will not" stop sin. Is that more acceptable?
God "cannot sin" because it's against God's nature to sin, not that something outside of God keeps him from sinning.
True, God hasn't stopped sin and currently will not stop sin, but in the future will stop sin. God doesn't lack the ability to stop sin. God will in the future stop sin.
quantumfaith
Active Member
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
Not so, there are examples in the scriptures where God could not prevent something.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Was it God's desire to gather the children of Jerusalem to him as a hen gathers it's chicks? YES. But they wouldn't come to God would they? NO.
Men have free will, and if men have free will you cannot prevent them from sinning. Oh, you could kill them before they have a chance to sin, but that would be unjust. The wages of SIN is death.
There are many things God cannot do, he cannot tell a lie.
Your specialty, a contradiction.
If men indeed have a free will and can make their own autonomous decisions and choices, then sin cannot be prevented, even by God.
See, you are stuck. If God is in complete control as you insist, then you must conclude that God makes men sin. It is that simple.
I do not believe that, I believe God gave man (and angels) the ability to make their own autonomous choices, therefore sin cannot be prevented.
God can't tell a lie, so there goes your concept of God's omnipotence down the drain.
Jesus did not say offenses (sin) are an option, he said they MUST NEEDS BE. They are necessary, they cannot be avoided. And if you believe God gives man the ability to make his own autonomous free choices, then you must agree that sin cannot be avoided.
When man sins, he is either doing it on his own, or God is making him do it.
Look, I have debated with you many times, I know you never attribute sin to God. You say that all men have free will, and that they will always choose to follow their greatest desire, which is to sin. So sin cannot be prevented in your view as well, unless God kills a man before he has a chance to sin.
God wanted to gather the children of Jerusalem as a hen gathers her chicks and could not get it done. Why? Because the children of Jerusalem were free agents and would not come to God.
God can stop evil after it occurs, he cannot stop a free agent from sinning. He cannot justly condemn an innocent man.
I believe men make the choice NOW whether they want to be holy or evil. In heaven we will not have a corruptible body to tempt us, and we will not be in an environment that will tempt us. We already have the Holy Spirit and are partakers of the divine nature and will not desire to sin.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Paul CHOSE to be obedient.
Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
Paul's very statement implies that he COULD HAVE been disobedient.
You implied I had not given thought to this subject. I accepted Christ around 48 years ago, which is probably far longer than you have been alive. I assure you I have been thinking about subjects like this a long time, probably FAR longer than you. You want to talk like a smart kid, I responded to you in kind. You are not difficult to refute, as smart as you believe yourself to be.
Free will does not deny God's omnipotence or sovereignty. I give my kids choices all the time. They can choose what they want for supper. I could always overrule them, but almost never do. I have given them this freedom to exercise. I am still in control. But I cannot decide for them what they want, that is their choice.
Man is either deciding for himself to sin, or God is doing it for him. If you agree that men are making their own free decisions, then sin cannot be prevented, that is what men will choose to do.
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I find the exact opposite to be true. Adam and Eve were created without sin in a perfect environment with only one single law and sinned the very first time they were tempted.
We are born into an utterly corrupt world with thousands of temptations and many laws to break. I do not find it unusual that all men sin at one time or another.
What I find incredible and truly blows my mind is that Jesus could live as a man in this world for 33 years and never sin once. Now THAT blows my mind.
Sorry, but I've tried to help you not go done this heretical path. I think you are a good person, but are being mislead somehow to go down this path. You are placing Free will over God's sovereignty.
It doesn't say the Children wouldn't come. Read it again. I'm also guessing you are officially denying the sovereignty of God. Just let me know. I don't want to falsely accuse you. Now, don't say you believe in God's sovereignty and then deny it in your words.
Oh, what a powerless God! I guess we will have sin in heaven then correct?
Of course, as I explained above. It's God and his nature, not someone from the outside limiting God.
You didn't read that correctly. I said I'm not judging you, but I can judge you if I want to. BIG difference. I'm simply trying to help you out. You're going down a dangerous path in defense of free will. You are placing man's free will over God's sovereignty.
Then 1)God is not sovereign, 2) sin will be in heaven
not at all, but I've only explained it a million times. But thanks for the heads up on denying God's sovereignty... again.
Sin can be prevented. There will be no sin in heaven.
Not at all. As I stated above(and have many times) no one outside of God keeps God from telling a lie. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!
I believe that sin will be defeated. I believe God is sovereign over sin. I believe that sin "must needs be" for the purpose of God, not that he couldn't' prevent it.
man is sinning on his own. God is sovereign over the situation and allows man to commit the sin.
Very good!
Ok winman, I see what you are saying. The problem is that you say "cannot be prevented" which is false. It could be prevented. There will be no sin in heaven. Satan will be cast in the lake of fire and sin will be defeated forever!
That's not what the passage says. The "will not" is not about the children.
well duh! It already happened.
oh really? No, he can. God is sovereign. You don't do anything unless God allows you to do it.
true???
So sin will no longer be. you won't be a slave. you will have free will..... hmmmm So sin can be prevented.
I don't disagree. I was picking in you by your usage of the term "slave." I agree that Paul was a willing slave of Christ.
I didn't mean to do that at all.
Praise the Lord!...and yes
Yes, but that doesn't mean much in a debate as far as the fact of it.
Again, more ad hominems. Let's not get cocky. You words have denied God's sovereignty. You put free will up so high as if God is unable to get things done that he wants to get done. It doesn't matter how long you have studied if you are wrong. Wrong is as wrong with 1 year of study as it is with 50 years of study.
correct, never said it did.
Ok not a bad example. You have sovereity over the choices of your children. You allow them to choose, but could overrule if need be.
Exactly. Their choices could be prevented if you wanted, correct.
Sin can be prevented. You showed why you believe sin will be prevented in heaven when we have our glorified bodies. So sin can be prevented. God uses sin to accomplish his will. He hates sin, but uses it for his own good.
So sin could be prevented by not having a corrupt world...
It is God in his sovereignty that gave all men the ability to make choices of his own. Free will exists because God gave man free will. God's sovereignty is not usurped by free will, it is established. It is similar to our laws, a minor is not able to enter into legal contracts. This is to protect the minor. But once they reach the age of majoritiy, the law gives a person the right to enter into contracts. The law is sovereign, but the law establishes and enforces the law of majority.
What?? It is EXACTLY that they WOULD NOT. Those are Jesus's exact words. You are the one who is denying the direct word of God.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
You deny the obvious, men can disobey God. We can GRIEVE the Holy Spirit. We can frustrate God. God does not always get his way with us.
Your concept of God is error, God has given men free will and we do not always obey God. In the end God will have his way, but for the present God does not always get his way with men.
Again, you do not know the scriptures, the scriptures say we limit God.
Psa 78:40 How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
If you would spend more time in the scriptures and less time mindlessly absorbing false Reformed doctrine you would see that God can be frustrated or grieved by man, and that man can limit God.
Mrk 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
Jesus was limited here in performing miracles because of the people's unbelief. He was limited by the people.
And I'm trying to show you that your view is unscriptural.
There will be no sin in heaven because everyone there has decided in this life to reject sin. Any person who gets saved has realized how wicked and damaging sin is and does not want to sin anymore. Yet we are still in corruptible bodies that tempt us, and are also subjected to many temptations from the outside in this world. But no true Christian wants to sin.
Of course no one outside of God prevents him from lying. God cannot lie because he is TRUTH.
God will defeat sin, but it has not happened yet. The devil is still very active and is opposing God at this very moment. The devil is not some sort of servant of God as some have written here in the past, he is God's enemy and adversity and has real power. Of course, in the end God will completely crush Satan. But for now Satan still works.
I would agree God is allowing man to sin, God could kill any of us at any time and prevent us from sinning again. But God must allow us to sin, he cannot give us free will AND control our every action, that is an impossibility.
It is like my adult children. When they were young, I could very much control everything they did. But now they are adults and I cannot control everything they do. The law itself defends their right to do what they wish, even if it disagrees with what I would have them do. I don't want my kids to drink, but they are over 21 and can drink if they want to, I cannot stop them.
God cannot give man free will AND prevent sin. If men have free will they can sin if they desire to, and nothing short of destroying them can prevent it. Again, it is like my kids, I cannot stop them from drinking alcohol if they desire to do so, they are adults. I certainly wouldn't kill them, but this is the only way I could prevent them from drinking if that's what they want to do.
See, you really don't believe men have free will. You think their actions are being controlled by God, they are robots and puppets. If so, then man is not responsible for sin, God is. If men are truly responsible for their own sin (and they are), then you must admit men are acting on their own. Of course, this upsets your false and unscriptural view of sovereignty.
It was exactly about the children of Jerusalem. Jesus said how he would have gathered them as a hen gathers her chicks, but they WOULD NOT.
well duh! It already happened.
The only way to truly prevent a free agent who desires to sin from sinning is to kill them before they have a chance to sin. You have a child who will grow up and sin, the only way to prevent your child from sinning is to kill him or her NOW. Trust me, your child is going to sin whether you like it or not, you cannot stop it. This is right in front of your nose, yet you cannot see it.
Exactly, Paul desired to serve God and be his servant. And in heaven we will desire to serve God and be his servant, hopefully you feel that way NOW.
I didn't mean to do that at all. Praise the Lord!...and yes
You are correct that the time a person is a Christian does not guarantee a person is correct. But you implied I had never considered these issues before. I was thinking about these issues before you were born.
correct, never said it did. Ok not a bad example. You have sovereity over the choices of your children. You allow them to choose, but could overrule if need be. Exactly. Their choices could be prevented if you wanted, correct.
Yes. I am not saying God couldn't absolutely stop sin. God could kill all of us before we can commit sin. But I don't think that is what God wants to do. God wants us to choose him of our own free will. That same free will that allows us to choose him also enables us to disobey and sin, it cannot be prevented. You cannot have free will AND prevent sin. Free will by definition means a person can choose to sin. It is a NECESSITY.
Again, I don't think there will be a need to prevent sin in heaven, all who are there have already rejected sin in this life. There will be no one there who loves sin and desires to sin.
Wouldn't you agree as a Christian that it is your desire to live without sin? I wish I could go without sinning NOW. I really do. And I am sure you feel the same way, I believe all true Christians have this same desire. But we are still in fleshly bodies that tempt us every day, and in a very corrupt and sinful world that tempts us every day. This is why I am amazed that Jesus could live as a man for 33 years without sinning. I am not surprised that we sin at all.
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