Did God will for man to sin?

[Winman]

That's not what you said earlier. You said we would have free will in heaven and not have the desire to sin.

The angels were in heaven and sinned. There is nothing about heaven that prevents a person with free will from sinning.

But those in heaven will be those who have chosen for all time against sin. We do not have the will or desire to sin now, as we have the Holy Spirit in us, and the Holy Spirit cannot sin.

If it's possible in heaven it's possible now. However, I think God has a reason to allow sin in the present age.

Exactly. But that does not prove we will not have free will in heaven, 2/3rds of the angels did not choose to sin.

That's true

You are skilled with words, but it is the truth that matters. I am playing no games, sometimes I believe you are.

Yes there are, but the I don't see the Bible teaching God causing sin.

Yes, I have noticed you are not quite sold on Calvinism. Most aren't, if you were truly consistent, you would be a Hyper.

Total depravity doesn't teach that man is as evil as he can be. Man can make "good" choices. There are unsaved people that help others, are faithful to their spouse, work diligently at work.... these would all be "good" choices. What I do believe is that unsaved man will never do any of these "good" things out of worship to God. He does them without faith. He doesn't do them for glory of God. Therefore, in a sense yes, unsaved man always sins. But as far as making "good" choices, he can as noted above. What I don't believe man can do because of his sinful nature is seek after God, worship God.... He desires his sinful ways greater.

Well, I think it absurd to believe a man is enslaved by a sin nature but can choose to do good. If he were truly enslaved he would be as evil as he possibly could be. Calvinism teaches this because it cannot deny that natural man often performs good works, it is obvious. Cornelius was one such man, he was not saved, yet he feared God, gave alms and prayed without ceasing. He was not saved, he was not regenerated, yet he did good, and God recognized his good and sent an angel to him to tell him to send for Peter whereby he and all his house could hear words that would save them. This utterly refutes Total Inability.

My point wasn't to debate you on this subject here as it would get us off topic. I was getting an understanding of what you believe "free will" means. I believe man is free to choose what he desires. I think on that area we agree on.

My understanding is that free will is the ability to make real choices. It means a man can choose either good or evil, as Cornelius chose good.

btw, we are on page 12 and are pretty much still on topic!!!! I think this should go in the BB record books.

And only a few personal insults from me! I can be civil, but I do not like folks to jerk me around. Start playing games and I will cut your throat. :laugh:

 

[plain_n_simple]

God did not will man to sin. God knew man would sin before He created Him and instituted a plan for man's salvation, guess when before the foundation of the earth. So no it was not God's desired will for man to sin. Did God allow man to sin would that be His permissive will?

God created man in His image, not two arm and legs, but love. Love is trust, love thinks the best. God is love. God trusted Adam to do right, not to fall. God did not make Adam to sin, that is a demonic teaching, nor did God create a perfect creation to fall. You who think Adam was destined to fall are deceived, by John Calvin.

 

[percho]

God created man in His image, not two arm and legs, but love. Love is trust, love thinks the best. God is love. God trusted Adam to do right, not to fall. God did not make Adam to sin, that is a demonic teaching, nor did God create a perfect creation to fall. You who think Adam was destined to fall are deceived, by John Calvin.

I do not have a clue what John Calvin thought or wrote.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


the serpent: Who/what was this? Why was he/it there? How did he/it get there? Where is he/it today?

And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.

Has that taken place yet? If yes, how was that done. If no, how will that be done?

 

[convicted1]

Willis, there can be no such thing as rebellion if there is no law. But you can also have no such thing as obedience without the law. This is what I am trying to get across, there can be no such thing as free will without the possibility that someone will rebel and sin.

Zactly!! That's what I was driving at, and apparently did a rather poor job of it. If God had not given them the warning of eating of that tree, then I do not think it would have been wrong. That being said, God did place that tree there, so that they would have a choice to obey Him or not. Obedience is better than sacrifice,to hearken better than the fat of rams.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil enabled man to make a choice. He could obey God and live in a perfect environment, or he could choose sin and introduce death into the world.

Correctamundo....Fonzie style......

God did not tempt Adam and Eve when he placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, as he strictly warned them not to eat of it, and said they would DIE if they ate of it. That is not a temptation!

Agreed. God the Father has never been tempted, and He will tempt anyone else, either.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil and the command not to eat of it enabled Adam and Eve to be obedient, but it also enabled disobedience. You cannot have one without the other, though many cannot seem to grasp this.

Agreed.

Likewise, you cannot have love without free will, but this same free will enables a person to reject and hate God.

Agreed.

God does not will that we sin EVER. But he does will that we have free will so that we can choose to love him. But this same free will must necessarily enable a person to hate God. It is NECESSARY, one cannot exist without the other, it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Agreed. My responses to this are kinda "anti-climatic", huh? :laugh:

 

[convicted1]

To Bros. Winman and JBH28.....

You two need to hold hands, and start singing, "The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round, the wheels on the bus go round and round, all day long..." :laugh:


J/K Brothers.......:thumbs::wavey::thumbs:

 

[evangelist6589]

My goodness! I come back to reply to posts and there are more than a 100 replies! I cant reply to that many posts.

 

[kyredneck]

......To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 Jn 3:8

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. Jn 12:31

.....the prince of this world hath been judged. Jn 16:11

Since when has he been bound?.....

But if I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then is the kingdom of God come upon you. Or how can one enter into the house of the strong man, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. Mt 12:28,29

And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more.... Rev 20:2,3

.....many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth....... Mt 8:11,12

......ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without. And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. Lu 13:28,29

.....It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you. Seeing ye thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee for a light of the Gentiles, That thou shouldest be for salvation unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 13:46,47

Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54:1-3

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. Isa 2:2,3

But in the latter days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and peoples shall flow unto it. And many nations shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem; Micah 4:1,2

And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him. Acts 10:34,35

giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love......even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints, to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col 1:12,13,26,27

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1716597&postcount=24

The strong man has been bound and his goods spoiled, the Gentiles have been grafted in.

 

[percho]

......To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 Jn 3:8

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. Jn 12:31

.....the prince of this world hath been judged. Jn 16:11



But if I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then is the kingdom of God come upon you. Or how can one enter into the house of the strong man, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. Mt 12:28,29

And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more.... Rev 20:2,3

.....many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth....... Mt 8:11,12

......ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without. And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. Lu 13:28,29

.....It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you. Seeing ye thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee for a light of the Gentiles, That thou shouldest be for salvation unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 13:46,47

Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54:1-3

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. Isa 2:2,3

But in the latter days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and peoples shall flow unto it. And many nations shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem; Micah 4:1,2

And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him. Acts 10:34,35

giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love......even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints, to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col 1:12,13,26,27

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1716597&postcount=24

The strong man has been bound and his goods spoiled, the Gentiles have been grafted in.

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets.

What is agreed to by the words of the prophets is that God was going to gather from among the Gentiles where the house of Israel had been scattered by God himself, a remnant of people for his name sake and eventually all of them put not at this time. At this time God is only gathering the first-fruits of the harvest, a remnant. See Ezek 36 See Jer 3 and if you would like more I'll dig them out.

Amos 9:9 speaks of the scattering. 9:10 is prophesy because the people really did not think they would see harm, but God says they would be scattered and punished among the Gentiles and they would also thrive among the Gentiles yet not knowing who they were. All this time since the resurrection of Jesus and the sending of the Holy Spirit, God has been taking out from among the Gentiles a remnant for his name sake. The first-fruits of the spirit.

In that day of having been scattered, punished, blending in among the Gentiles not even knowing who they are, the the remembrance of them to cease from among men: Duet 32:26 and being taken out from among the Gentiles: After these things I will return.

This taking out of the Gentiles, is still going on, He has not returned yet, as seen by the feast of trumpets, the tabernacle of David hasn't been built or repaired yet.

Satan is still deceiving the world and has not been bound yet. I believe that is pictured by the day of Atonement which follows the feast of trumpets which is the, I will return.

This question from post 123 would apply here.

And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.

Has that taken place yet? If yes, how was that done. If no, how will that be done?

JHMO

 

[kyredneck]

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets.

What is agreed to by the words of the prophets is that God was going to gather from among the Gentiles where the house of Israel had been scattered by God himself, a remnant of people for his name sake and eventually all of them put not at this time. At this time God is only gathering the first-fruits of the harvest, a remnant. See Ezek 36 See Jer 3 and if you would like more I'll dig them out.

Amos 9:9 speaks of the scattering. 9:10 is prophesy because the people really did not think they would see harm, but God says they would be scattered and punished among the Gentiles and they would also thrive among the Gentiles yet not knowing who they were. All this time since the resurrection of Jesus and the sending of the Holy Spirit, God has been taking out from among the Gentiles a remnant for his name sake. The first-fruits of the spirit.

In that day of having been scattered, punished, blending in among the Gentiles not even knowing who they are, the the remembrance of them to cease from among men: Duet 32:26 and being taken out from among the Gentiles: After these things I will return.

I take it from this you hold to the dispensational falsehood that (the Church is only a 'parenthesis').

Esau is described as a 'profane person' in the scriptures, but at least he SOLD his birthright. Dispies give their's away.

This taking out of the Gentiles, is still going on, He has not returned yet, as seen by the feast of trumpets, the tabernacle of David hasn't been built or repaired yet.

Satan is still deceiving the world and has not been bound yet. I believe that is pictured by the day of Atonement which follows the feast of trumpets which is the, I will return.....

...out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings Mt 15:19

Satan is not required for man to sin, man is perfectly capable on his own...

 

[revmwc]

God created man in His image, not two arm and legs, but love. Love is trust, love thinks the best. God is love. God trusted Adam to do right, not to fall. God did not make Adam to sin, that is a demonic teaching, nor did God create a perfect creation to fall. You who think Adam was destined to fall are deceived, by John Calvin.

I did not say Adam was destined to fall I said God knew he would fall, God didn't want him to fall, nor did He will him to fall. But it didn't surprise God when Adam fell, for God knew that it would happen and that is why, we see in

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

That Jesus was pre-ordained before the foundation of the world to become the means of Salvation for mankind. God knew Adam would fall, He did not will it, nor cause it but He knew it would happen and made his plan accordingly.

 

[Amy.G]

That Jesus was pre-ordained before the foundation of the world to become the means of Salvation for mankind. God knew Adam would fall, He did not will it, nor cause it but He knew it would happen and made his plan accordingly.

I see this statement all the time on the BB and it bothers me because it appears that God created man, then realized he would sin, then said to Himself now what can I do to fix it. I don't think God works that way.

 

[revmwc]

I see this statement all the time on the BB and it bothers me because it appears that God created man, then realized he would sin, then said to Himself now what can I do to fix it. I don't think God works that way.

Amy re-read what I said, God knew it before the foundation of the World and formulated the plan accordingly for man's salvation. Not after man fell but before the foundation of the world, when was that, Eternity past, at least past for us.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Of course you're right, revmwc, and I don't know what people can't see. Nothing really happens to God in real time but all our decisions and his interactions with us happened in eternity past as far as he is concerned. Nothing took him by surprise, but he did actually will things but those were, as they had to be, in accordance with his foreknowledge. If he wills apart from foreknowledge, then he is a knowledge-less god and unworthy therefore of worship.

 

[percho]

I take it from this you hold to the dispensational falsehood that (the Church is only a 'parenthesis').

Esau is described as a 'profane person' in the scriptures, but at least he SOLD his birthright. Dispies give their's away.



...out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings Mt 15:19

Satan is not required for man to sin, man is perfectly capable on his own...

I think the church, the body of Christ, is Jerusalem above, Mt. Zion, the mother of us all, that is all who will be born into the kingdom of God.

As you posted from Isa 54 / Gal 4 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. -----We being the called out ones.-----From whence?

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Was God once the husband of these called out ones see verse 8? Would you agree or disagree that Zion here is the church, Jerusalem above the mother of us all? Are these the same people who God scattered in Amos 9:9? In the context of this verse is God taking all of them who are scattered or just a remnant for his name? According to Hosea did not these people who had once been married to God become a desolate woman among the Gentiles?

Trust me I am trying to understand the scriptures written on the OT in the context in which they are written about in the NT.

 

[percho]

I did not say Adam was destined to fall I said God knew he would fall, God didn't want him to fall, nor did He will him to fall. But it didn't surprise God when Adam fell, for God knew that it would happen and that is why, we see in

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

That Jesus was pre-ordained before the foundation of the world to become the means of Salvation for mankind. God knew Adam would fall, He did not will it, nor cause it but He knew it would happen and made his plan accordingly.

Big Question?


Did he not have to fall in order to bring death to mankind in order for the Lamb who was to be slain actually be slain/die the death?

 

[percho]

I see this statement all the time on the BB and it bothers me because it appears that God created man, then realized he would sin, then said to Himself now what can I do to fix it. I don't think God works that way.

He fixed it before he even created the man. However I believe he was fixing a bigger problem concerning where the power of death actually came from. Satan.
Before Gen. 1:2 1/2 And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Death and the power thereof was already on the earth. Why do you think it was with form and void and darkness (Satan) upon the face of the deep.

Because it was a dead planet, death caused by Satan and the absence of God.

Let there be light, was the return of and the presence of God, Light.

God divided the Light himself from the Darkness, Satan and he called the light day and the darkness he called night and the evening and the morning were the first day. John 11:9.10 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

 

[revmwc]

Big Question?


Did he not have to fall in order to bring death to mankind in order for the Lamb who was to be slain actually be slain/die the death?

Man had to fall in order to be saved. The Lamb was to be slain for the man that Fell, but in God's Omniscience He knew it all would happen, that doesn't mean He willed it to be but He knew it to be so.

 

[Winman]

Man had to fall in order to be saved. The Lamb was to be slain for the man that Fell, but in God's Omniscience He knew it all would happen, that doesn't mean He willed it to be but He knew it to be so.

I agree with this. God knew in his foreknowledge man would sin and had already planned a means of salvation through his Son Jesus Christ. I also believe God knew in his foreknowledge those who would believe on Jesus and chose them. These are the elect.

 

[revmwc]

I agree with this. God knew in his foreknowledge man would sin and had already planned a means of salvation through his Son Jesus Christ. I also believe God knew in his foreknowledge those who would believe on Jesus and chose them. These are the elect.

That is what I have been saying on here all along.