Did Jesus Actually Go To hell, as per The Creeds?

[Steadfast Fred]

Abraham did not answer the rich man there was no water, which he could have easily done. No, he answered there was a great gulf between them that no one could cross.

Abraham also told us the poor beggar was comforted, so obviously he was not tormented by the flame nor by thirst as the rich man was.

It is also illogical to believe the rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus but they could not see him. They clearly could converse across this gulf and did, so why couldn't Abraham and Lazarus see the rich man? Luk 16:23 cleary says the rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus.

Scripture reveals to us that hell is a place of outer darkness. I do not believe that Lazarus and Abraham saw the rich man who was in a place of outer darkness.

As to the water, like I said, the rich man said 'send Lazarus, that he may dip his finger in water.' He did not say have Lazarus bring water from where he is. He did not even say he saw water. All that we are assured of him seeing is Lazarus and Abraham. He told the rich man 'Send Lazarus, that he may dip his finger in water..." not "Let Lazarus dip his finger in water and then send him to me."

Also, the Bible does not say the rich man was tormented by thirst. It says he was tormented 'in this flame."

 

[percho]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenas View Post
The Apostles Creed is our oldest Christian creed outside of the Bible. Its author is unknown, if indeed it had a single author, and the etiology of this controversial line cannot be traced precisely.

“He descended into Hell” has not been dropped from modern versions of the Creed. However, it has been changed in some versions to say, “He descended to the dead.” They mean the same thing, i.e., that Jesus did not go to a place of torment but rather to the abode of the righteous dead. These people were stuck in a kind of purgatory (not going to Hell but unable to enter Heaven without Jesus). So, in a manner of speaking Jesus descended to the dead to rescue them from prison and lead them to Heaven. We know for certain that He did enter the underworld and He did make a proclamation to the departed spirits. If you don’t believe this, you can mark 1 Peter 3:19 out of your Bible.

Martin Marprelate;[/B]1675673]If that is the case, I don't quite see how He could say on the cross to the penitent thief, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Steve[/QUOT

To begin with I read 1 Peter 3:19,20 as Jesus going by the Spirit, that would quicken him after three days and three nights without life, While Noah was building the flood to demon spirit beings held in chains of darkness.

In the following from Young's Literal if and I say if the comma is in the correct place what part of Jesus was with him that day? and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, to-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.' Jesus had commended his spirit into the hands of the Father I assume to be kept for him. His flesh which would be subject to corruption yet did not see corruption lay in the tomb and Peter tells us his soul would not be left in Hades.

However if the comma is put where it should be this scripture does not contradict any of these others and more accurately answers the request of the thief.

and Jesus said to him,`Verily I say to thee to-day, with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

Abraham's bosom? A covenant relationship or a place? The dead in Christ that shall rise first, are they in a covenant relationship or a place?

Jesus said, `Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit.

At that moment this also became a reality, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Hades hell in the KJV

 

[Martin Marprelate]

However if the comma is put where it should be this scripture does not contradict any of these others and more accurately answers the request of the thief.

and Jesus said to him,`Verily I say to thee to-day, with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

Oh dear! Two things. Firstly, the lord Jesus says "Verily I say to thee' many times. Can you find one other place where He adds "today"?

Secondly, what does it mean? What is the point of it? "Verily, I say to thee yesterday" doesn't make sense; nor does "Verily I say to thee tomorrow." The only point of it is if you believe in 'soul sleep.'

No, the thief's spirit and our Lord's went straightaway to be with the Father, in answer to His prayer (Luke 23:46). Christ had already experienced hell for every believer. His body, of course remained in the tomb.

Any good commentary will explain 1Peter 3:19-20 to you.

Steve

 

[percho]

Oh dear! Two things. Firstly, the lord Jesus says "Verily I say to thee' many times. Can you find one other place where He adds "today"?

Secondly, what does it mean? What is the point of it? "Verily, I say to thee yesterday" doesn't make sense; nor does "Verily I say to thee tomorrow." The only point of it is if you believe in 'soul sleep.'

No, the thief's spirit and our Lord's went straightaway to be with the Father, in answer to His prayer (Luke 23:46). Christ had already experienced hell for every believer. His body, of course remained in the tomb.

Any good commentary will explain 1Peter 3:19-20 to you.

Steve

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, (1) that his soul was not left in hell, (2) neither his flesh did see corruption.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Christ died for our sins


This says that Christ died, not the body of Christ died for our sins. Acts 2 says The soul of Christ was resurrected from hell and his body also was resurrected before it saw any corruption and it was raised in a way that it could never be subject to corruption again.

And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

The whole of Christ died and the whole of Christ was raised,

 

[Winman]

Jesus did not go to heaven when he died on the cross as shown by his statement to Mary Magdalene just after he rose from the dead.

Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; FOR I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ASCEND UNTO MY FATHER, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[annsni]

Jesus did not go to heaven when he died on the cross as shown by his statement to Mary Magdalene just after he rose from the dead.

Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; FOR I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ASCEND UNTO MY FATHER, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

That is correct. His body did not ascend, did it?

 

[Winman]

That is correct. His body did not ascend, did it?

What do you mean his body? His soul also did not ascend to the Father until after he arose from the dead.

When Jesus said he would be three days and three night in the heart of the earth, he was speaking of his soul, not his body.

How do I know this? Because Jesus was buried ABOVE ground.

Luk 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came to the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. 3 AND THEY ENTERED IN, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

Christ's tomb was ABOVE ground, Mary and others walked into it.

 

[annsni]

What do you mean his body? His soul also did not ascend to the Father until after he arose from the dead.

When Jesus said he would be three days and three night in the heart of the earth, he was speaking of his soul, not his body.

How do I know this? Because Jesus was buried ABOVE ground.

Luk 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came to the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. 3 AND THEY ENTERED IN, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

Christ's tomb was ABOVE ground, Mary and others walked into it.

I'm sorry but I have seen the Scriptures to say pretty much the exact opposite of what you are seeing here. His body entered the grave, His soul did not. His soul was in heaven that very moment when he "gave up his spirit". His body lay in the grave for three days but His soul did not.

When He spoke to Mary, He was now in a glorified body but it had not been to heaven yet. Later, He was able to be touched by His disciples because He had ascended to heaven bodily as well as spiritually.

 

[Winman]

I'm sorry but I have seen the Scriptures to say pretty much the exact opposite of what you are seeing here. His body entered the grave, His soul did not. His soul was in heaven that very moment when he "gave up his spirit". His body lay in the grave for three days but His soul did not.

When He spoke to Mary, He was now in a glorified body but it had not been to heaven yet. Later, He was able to be touched by His disciples because He had ascended to heaven bodily as well as spiritually.

Believe what you wish, but you must disregard the scriptures.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his SOUL was not LEFT IN HELL, neither did his flesh see corruption.

Peter said this twice in Acts 2, quoting David who also said this in the Psalms.

 

[annsni]

Believe what you wish, but you must disregard the scriptures.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his SOUL was not LEFT IN HELL, neither did his flesh see corruption.

Peter said this twice in Acts 2, quoting David who also said this in the Psalms.

What is the Greek word "hell" and what is the meaning?

 

[Winman]

What is the Greek word "hell" and what is the meaning?

When Peter used it in Acts 2:31 it was "hades". According to Strong's this was associated with Orcus and meant the abode of the dead in the deepest regions of the earth.

The word for soul is "psyche" which means the life force and being of the person and is distinguished from the body.

These definitions support my view and refute yours, look and see for yourself.

 

[percho]

What is the Greek word "hell" and what is the meaning?

I do not think the meaning is heaven.

 

[annsni]

When Peter used it in Acts 2:31 it was "hades". According to Strong's this was associated with Orcus and meant the abode of the dead in the deepest regions of the earth.

Yes, Jesus' soul was not left in hell like you are purporting, was it? "Hades" was the place of all dead - the grave. It was not the hell of burning eternity. If that is where Jesus went, then His sacrifice on the cross was not enough to satisfy God's wrath and it was not truly "finished" meaning that Jesus lied.

The word for soul is "psyche" which means the life force and being of the person and is distinguished from the body.

Yes, exactly. Jesus' soul did not go to the grave but instead went straight to the Father. "Into your hands I commend my spirit". Did God then toss it away?

These definitions support my view and refute yours, look and see for yourself.

As I've shown, they actually do not.

I do not think the meaning is heaven.

Nope, it's not heaven. Jesus' spirit was not left in the grave but instead went straight to the Father.

 

[Winman]

Yes, Jesus' soul was not left in hell like you are purporting, was it? "Hades" was the place of all dead - the grave. It was not the hell of burning eternity. If that is where Jesus went, then His sacrifice on the cross was not enough to satisfy God's wrath and it was not truly "finished" meaning that Jesus lied.



Yes, exactly. Jesus' soul did not go to the grave but instead went straight to the Father. "Into your hands I commend my spirit". Did God then toss it away?



As I've shown, they actually do not.



Nope, it's not heaven. Jesus' spirit was not left in the grave but instead went straight to the Father.

I didn't say Jesus went to that part of hell where men are tormented in flames, Jesus went down into paradise or Abraham's bosom described in Luke 16.

You don't understand, no man could go to heaven until Jesus ascended to heaven after his resurrection and offered his blood on the mercy seat in heaven. Only when men's sins were atoned for could men go directly to heaven. Until then they had to wait in paradise.

Read the story of the prophet Samuel in 1 Sam 28. Samuel was dead and buried, king Saul hired a witch with a familiar spirit to bring Samuel up. And she did bring Samuel up. Samuel was saved, he was a great prophet, but his soul was down in paradise in the heart of the earth. This is where all saints had to wait until Jesus offered his blood on the mercy seat in heaven.

 

[annsni]

I didn't say Jesus went to that part of hell where men are tormented in flames, Jesus went down into paradise or Abraham's bosom described in Luke 16.

You don't understand, no man could go to heaven until Jesus ascended to heaven after his resurrection and offered his blood on the mercy seat in heaven. Only when men's sins were atoned for could men go directly to heaven. Until then they had to wait in paradise.

Read the story of the prophet Samuel in 1 Sam 28. Samuel was dead and buried, king Saul hired a witch with a familiar spirit to bring Samuel up. And she did bring Samuel up. Samuel was saved, he was a great prophet, but his soul was down in paradise in the heart of the earth. This is where all saints had to wait until Jesus offered his blood on the mercy seat in heaven.

So there's someplace other than heaven or hell? I don't see that as a Scriptural concept. Looking at the Samuel passage, does it sound familiar? "I want to speak to dear Aunt Trudie". Who do you think Aunt Trudie really is when they speak to her? I don't think that was truly Samuel.

I've heard the argument of there being a "waiting room" but I don't see that being correct in light of all of Scripture. The Old Testament saints were saved just as the New Testament saints were - through the blood of Jesus Christ, their Messiah.

 

[percho]

I didn't say Jesus went to that part of hell where men are tormented in flames, Jesus went down into paradise or Abraham's bosom described in Luke 16.

You don't understand, no man could go to heaven until Jesus ascended to heaven after his resurrection and offered his blood on the mercy seat in heaven. Only when men's sins were atoned for could men go directly to heaven. Until then they had to wait in paradise.

Read the story of the prophet Samuel in 1 Sam 28. Samuel was dead and buried, king Saul hired a witch with a familiar spirit to bring Samuel up. And she did bring Samuel up. Samuel was saved, he was a great prophet, but his soul was down in paradise in the heart of the earth. This is where all saints had to wait until Jesus offered his blood on the mercy seat in heaven.

Paradise Three times in the KJV Once relative to when thou comest into thy kingdom. Do you think that kingdom will come up from somewhere.
Second, Paul was caught up into paradise. I believe that is opposite of the lowest parts of the earth or the heart of the earth or down to Sheol/Hades.
Third, The tree of life is there. Do you think the tree of life is down in Hades?

even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Would it be fair to say these are in the bosom of Christ? Would you say that being in Christ whether dead or alive are also in the bosom of Abraham based upon this verse? And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. The promises were only made to these two
to be in one would be to be in the other.

Annsni
all in whose nostrils [is] breath of a living spirit -- of all that [is] in the dry land -- have died. That is life from the living God. When Jesus placed that breath of a living spirit into the hands of the Father, Jesus the once living soul was dead and his soul at that moment was in the realm of the dead Hades for three days and three nights time.

His soul was not left in Hades. His soul not his spirit.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Believe what you wish, but you must disregard the scriptures.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his SOUL was not LEFT IN HELL,

Is anyone suggesting that it was?

Steve

 

[Allan]

So there's someplace other than heaven or hell? I don't see that as a Scriptural concept. Looking at the Samuel passage, does it sound familiar? "I want to speak to dear Aunt Trudie". Who do you think Aunt Trudie really is when they speak to her? I don't think that was truly Samuel.

I've heard the argument of there being a "waiting room" but I don't see that being correct in light of all of Scripture. The Old Testament saints were saved just as the New Testament saints were - through the blood of Jesus Christ, their Messiah.

I have already spoke to this issue on a previous thread but wanted to address this though:

Interesting.. the Bible states it 'WAS' Samuel but you say the bible is wrong?
Scripture never gives us indication it was someone other than Samuel himself.

 

[Jerome]

Chapter and verse:

RCS NTAGQ 2:12

"is it possible? I don't think so. I don't think we can call forth the spirits of the dead. I believe all mediums resort to trickery to perform these feats."

RCS SBS

"witch of Endor were in all probability simply practicing clever tricks"

 

[Allan]

Chapter and verse:

RCS NTAGQ 2:12

"is it possible? I don't think so. I don't think we can call forth the spirits of the dead. I believe all mediums resort to trickery to perform these feats."

RCS SBS

"witch of Endor were in all probability simply practicing clever tricks"

Again, and yet, SCRIPTURE declares it was Samuel and not a familiar spirit because scripture itself declares it was Samuel. If it was another spirit scripture would not have called him Samuel nor would it have declared to Saul proclamation of the Lord against him. Note especially 1 Sam 28:15 "And Samuel said to Saul...", and over and over this spirit is identified with/as Samuel the Prophet.

It is of note as well that it was not the witches art that brought forth Samuel, in fact, according to the layout of the passages - she asked who he wanted to speak, he told her Samuel, and Samuel appeared. Not through the working of her arts but immediately, and it was 'this situation' that surprised her so and she screamed (presumably, yet there is no other legitimate reason I can fathom for her to scream since the spirits she dealt with were 'familiars' or know already to her ).