skypair said:
You seem to be "nibbling around the edges" of what I said, DHK. "Dig in!" When Christ "made Himself lower...", was He still "equal with God?" When He was sin for us on the cross, was He equal with God or equal with man? If He was my "Substitute" and I am now His substitute, have I not become equal with Him and He was with me on the cross?
Let's try this again.
When the second person of the trinity (the Word), "made himself lower" or volitionally submitted Himself to the first person of the trinity, it was His choice to do so. He was not forced into it. God cannot be forced to do anything. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are co-equal throughout all eternity. They were when Christ was on earth, and they are now.
Christ said: I am come to do thy will.
I always do the will of my Father.
--He voluntarily, as a man, submitted Himself to the first person of the trinity, while He (the Word) maintained His deity, being the Second person of the trinity--the perfect man; the only God--the God-man.
As a man he submitted himself; as God he was still the Creator. As God there was no change.
"Was he equal with God or equal with man?
--He is God. That is the obvious answer. Man doesn't even begin to compare. Christ is God within a fleshly temple.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
God was on earth dwelling in an earthly temple. We are not gods. We don't come close to being equal with Christ. In Him did all the fulness of the Godhead dwell.
Then why did Paul distinguish Him claiming equality with God pre-advent and equality with man in His advent? Isn't it true that, though He remained God, He did not have "equal" prerogatives with the Father but instead shared the prerogatives and responsibilites of man?
From the above Scripture Paul never distinguished Him claiming equality with God. He was God in the flesh, Paul said. That is clear enough for me. In his humanity he submitted himself to the Father, but only in his humanity. Yet that was volitional. He was still God. Remember he could have called 12 legions (72,000) angels at anytime to stop it all. He was God (and still is).
He did have "equal prerogatives. Understand John 3:13
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
--He speaks of him omniscience to Nicodemus. While on earth he tells him that he is in heaven. His miracles attested of his omnipotence. That is the reason that Nicodemus came to him. "No man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with Him."
I knew this was coming. You're right. But saying that only shows that you don't understand oneness and trinity existing simultaneously. Pre-advent, Christ was all God as if He were no Son; and all Son as if He were not God." When He was born, He was "all God as if He were not man; and..." IOW, God equal with man. When we are saved, the highest One we can be "equal to" is Christ "all in all" because while He was here, He did not reveal what "God all in all" would appear as (since He gave up His equality to become man/servant).
Quite frankly, it is my opinion that you are basing your entire theology on a misinterpretation of a very difficult verse (1Cor.15:28). Many scholars have varied and different opinions of the meaning of that verse. Remember the context--he is giving evidences of the resurrection.
Now back to your post. Christ was all God, and the Son at the same time. It could be no other way. He is the Word, the second person of the trinity, and always has been.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
--If it causes less confusion in your mind to refer to the second person as the Word, then so be it. I think it is more accurate a term anyway. Regardless, He is and always has been the second person of triune Godhead.
While Christ was here it was the only way that He could reveal what God was like--the only way!
John 14:9-11 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Only Christ could fully reveal God to the world.
And we don't know how He will appear again but we know that when He appears, we shall be like Him (God all in all).
Like him only in some ways. Like him does not mean we will be divine in no sense of the word
Yes, we are "sinless" IAW 1John 3:6, 9 and we strive to achieve "the perfect man, the measure of the stature of of the fulness of Christ." (Eph 4:13) We are "all Christ as if we were not man" when we abide not in sin. We are "all man as if we were not Christ" when we sin.
No we are not sinless. That is a misinterpretation of that verse. 1John 1:8,10 says that when you claim sinlessness you do not know the truth, you are a liar, and the word is not in you. That is quite a condemnation.
The "perfect" (OE for "complete) man does not speak of sinlessness. It speaks of maturity, or completion in the sense of showing the fruit of the Spirit in one's life.
There are none of us who continue from day to day without sin. We fail. We sin. And 1John 1:9 commands us to confess and ask forgiveness. 1John 2:1 tells us that we WILL sin.
But you see, Christ didn't have this "mix," did He. Because He was "all God as if...", His flesh had no sin -- it had the righteousness of God instead. But as "all man as if...", He did have godly prerogatives that we cannot achieve in this life.
Christ didn't have to have this mix, you say.
No, and Christ didn't have to die for our sins either. He is God. He is our Creator. He is the second person of the triune Godhead. He holds all power in His hand. He spoke all things into existence.
Christ did not have "perogatives." He is God. He has "need of nothing" the Bible states. We are the creatures; He is the Creator. It will always remain that way. When He was on this earth his body was like ours--made of flesh, bones, blood, water, atoms, molecules, matter, etc. He was human--totally human. Yet, at the same time He was totally God. He never left His deity behind, not for one nanosecond.
The correct term is that he had no "sin nature."
raying: 
