Did Jesus Christ have A "Free Will" To Do the Cross or Not?

[JesusFan]

Which leads into IF God Himself has a "Free Will""

I believe that He ALONE of all beings does have absolute free will, ALL others limited to a degree/fashion due to their sin and weakness.....

BUT

Since God The father already had decreed that His Som would come and die on the Cross as the Sin Bearer, did Jesus really have"free will" while on the earth?

 

[glfredrick]

Which leads into IF God Himself has a "Free Will""

I believe that He ALONE of all beings does have absolute free will, ALL others limited to a degree/fashion due to their sin and weakness.....

BUT

Since God The father already had decreed that His Som would come and die on the Cross as the Sin Bearer, did Jesus really have"free will" while on the earth?

"Nevertheless, not My will, but Thine..." :wavey:

 

[JesusFan]

"Nevertheless, not My will, but Thine..." :wavey:

So you could say that Jesus life is a perfect example of how God would be in absolute control. soverign, yet He still would allow/permit for to decide to do the right thing, in accordance with His divine plan and Purposes?

 

[glfredrick]

So you could say that Jesus life is a perfect example of how God would be in absolute control. soverign, yet He still would allow/permit for to decide to do the right thing, in accordance with His divine plan and Purposes?

I think it would be fair to say just that, for just that is just the truth!

How all that works out is another story, and since we are not given all the pertinent details in some "proof-text" form, we often resort to human logic, philosophy, and what some call theology (can it truly be theology if God has not "said" in His revelation?) in order to construct a means for how that can be.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Matthew 26:42 makes me think that He did NOT have a free will in choosing. "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done." That sounds very much as though what Jesus did depended on the Father's will and not His own.

 

[preacher4truth]

The Scriptures are plain, not His will, but the Fathers will. This is the case for all of mankind, His will will be done, not mans. And it will be done.

Man thinks he has freewill, I totally disagree. I used to think I believed that, now I do not.

All that the Father has purposed will come to pass, all that He has willed will transcend all others, philosophies, opinions, counsels and plans.

These are all under His Authority, His control, and under His purpose. And just think. This makes God look HUGE to our finite minds, but we don't even begin to understand His Greatness.

 

[JesusFan]

The Scriptures are plain, not His will, but the Fathers will. This is the case for all of mankind, His will will be done, not mans. And it will be done.

Man thinks he has freewill, I totally disagree. I used to think I believed that, now I do not.

All that the Father has purposed will come to pass, all that He has willed will transcend all others, philosophies, opinions, counsels and plans.

These are all under His Authority, His control, and under His purpose. And just think. This makes God look HUGE to our finite minds, but we don't even begin to understand His Greatness.

That is why i was asking IF the life of Chrsit could model to us just it can be that man has his version of a "free will" even in regards to his own salvation, and yet the Lord is still able to maintain control and superintend over all situations and bring to pass His diviine and soverign Will!

 

[percho]

I would say his free will went with this statement, but did empty himself.

Before the creation of the first man, Adam: He,Jesus the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world agreeing to be the from of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made. He gave his will to the Father.

By this he also learned the obedience.

I find it interesting the, article precedes obedience. The obedience of what?

 

[glfredrick]

That is why i was asking IF the life of Chrsit could model to us just it can be that man has his version of a "free will" even in regards to his own salvation, and yet the Lord is still able to maintain control and superintend over all situations and bring to pass His diviine and soverign Will!

While Christ IS a model to us, He is SO much more than just a model. It is noteworthy that the more anthropocentric soteriologies see Christ in this fashion, they holding that the work of salvation primarily starts with human action, which by necessity follows the "good example" of Christ rather than a more Reformed perspective that readily admits the supernatural nature of salvation, imputed righteousness by Christ alone, as the gift of God, not a work of humanity.

 

[revmwc]

Matthew 26:42 makes me think that He did NOT have a free will in choosing. "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done." That sounds very much as though what Jesus did depended on the Father's will and not His own.

But what was the cup He was speaking of? Most say the cross but look at the passages dealing with this.

1st clue what the cup was is seen in Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Notice the tremdous stress His Body was under.

Mark 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

Again look at the stress his body was in so sorrowful even unto death.

Luke 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,

He was in agony even sweating drops of blood, so much was His body under stress the Father sent an Angel to give Him strength to make it through teh night and to the cross.

He was not asking that He not go to the cross in his request "let this cup pass from me" He was asking for strength to make it to the cross, but if God allowed Him to die in the Garden He said not my will but thine be done. God immediately answered the prayer by sending the Angel to STRENTHEN Him so He could make it to the cross.

I have seen this interpreted as you do by so many but the proof of the cup is in those passage that say he was sorrowful even to death and in agony sweating drop of blood. Couldn't be anything but asking not to die pre-maturely in the Garden because the emotional stress he was under. Great example of how God will come to us when we are under such great stress and yet many don't preach it that way.

 

[JesusFan]

But what was the cup He was speaking of? Most say the cross but look at the passages dealing with this.

1st clue what the cup was is seen in Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Notice the tremdous stress His Body was under.

Mark 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

Again look at the stress his body was in so sorrowful even unto death.

Luke 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,

He was in agony even sweating drops of blood, so much was His body under stress the Father sent an Angel to give Him strength to make it through teh night and to the cross.

He was not asking that He not go to the cross in his request "let this cup pass from me" He was asking for strength to make it to the cross, but if God allowed Him to die in the Garden He said not my will but thine be done. God immediately answered the prayer by sending the Angel to STRENTHEN Him so He could make it to the cross.

I have seen this interpreted as you do by so many but the proof of the cup is in those passage that say he was sorrowful even to death and in agony sweating drop of blood. Couldn't be anything but asking not to die pre-maturely in the Garden because the emotional stress he was under. Great example of how God will come to us when we are under such great stress and yet many don't preach it that way.

have both read and heard it taught that MAIN reason that He was "sweating" this trial was that He knew as the Sin bearer, for first time in history, he would face seperation from His Heavenly Father, being estranged while on the Cross...

 

[JesusFan]

While Christ IS a model to us, He is SO much more than just a model. It is noteworthy that the more anthropocentric soteriologies see Christ in this fashion, they holding that the work of salvation primarily starts with human action, which by necessity follows the "good example" of Christ rather than a more Reformed perspective that readily admits the supernatural nature of salvation, imputed righteousness by Christ alone, as the gift of God, not a work of humanity.

Agree that His atonement was via a penal Substitionary payment to God on/for our behalf, just that at times extreme sides both get shown...

Emphasis 0n His Diety , anothor His humanity, need to express Both!

 

[revmwc]

have both read and heard it taught that MAIN reason that He was "sweating" this trial was that He knew as the Sin bearer, for first time in history, he would face seperation from His Heavenly Father, being estranged while on the Cross...

All of that was what brought the stress upon His physical body. Think about that He was God but as humanity his body was limited physically as we are. What would happen to us if we knew what He did about that night and the cruxidiction and we had that same stress on us? Our heart might explode, a stroke come on us all types of things could happen to us physically and that night in the Garden that same stress, anguish and sorrow were taking on toll physically upon Him to the point of death and He prayed for the Father to help Him get to the cross not avoid the cross.

 

[percho]

I did not see where it was said his body was under stress. The cup was his coming suffering and death. It is the same cup that is in Mark 10:38. His soul was in anguish striving to go thru with the will of the Father with obedience unto death rather than the sin of disobedience.

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And after the angel came And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

It was his soul not his body.

The very reason for my original post, Quote

I would say his free will went with this statement, but did empty himself.

Before the creation of the first man, Adam: He,Jesus the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world agreeing to be the from of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made. He gave his will to the Father.

By this he also learned the obedience.

I find it interesting the, article precedes obedience. The obedience of what?

Christ died for us. I know you do not believe that he, his soul, the total Christ actually died for us. He was paid the wages for our sin that we should be paid. Death unqualified.

 

[revmwc]

I did not see where it was said his body was under stress. The cup was his coming suffering and death. It is the same cup that is in Mark 10:38. His soul was in anguish striving to go thru with the will of the Father with obedience unto death rather than the sin of disobedience.

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And after the angel came And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

It was his soul not his body.

The very reason for my original post, Quote

I would say his free will went with this statement, but did empty himself.

Before the creation of the first man, Adam: He,Jesus the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world agreeing to be the from of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made. He gave his will to the Father.

By this he also learned the obedience.

I find it interesting the, article precedes obedience. The obedience of what?

Christ died for us. I know you do not believe that he, his soul, the total Christ actually died for us. He was paid the wages for our sin that we should be paid. Death unqualified.

Stress of the soul = stress of the body. Plus this:
Hematidrosis (also called hematohidrosis) is a very rare condition in which a human being sweats blood, though it has not been confirmed scientifically.[1] It may occur when a person is suffering extreme levels of stress, for example, facing his or her own death.[2] Several historical references have been described; notably by Leonardo da Vinci: describing a soldier who sweated blood before battle, men unexpectedly given a death sentence, as well as descriptions in the Bible, that Jesus experienced hematidrosis when he was praying in the garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22:44).

 

[JesusFan]

But what was the cup He was speaking of? Most say the cross but look at the passages dealing with this.

1st clue what the cup was is seen in Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Notice the tremdous stress His Body was under.

Mark 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

Again look at the stress his body was in so sorrowful even unto death.

Luke 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,

He was in agony even sweating drops of blood, so much was His body under stress the Father sent an Angel to give Him strength to make it through teh night and to the cross.

He was not asking that He not go to the cross in his request "let this cup pass from me" He was asking for strength to make it to the cross, but if God allowed Him to die in the Garden He said not my will but thine be done. God immediately answered the prayer by sending the Angel to STRENTHEN Him so He could make it to the cross.

I have seen this interpreted as you do by so many but the proof of the cup is in those passage that say he was sorrowful even to death and in agony sweating drop of blood. Couldn't be anything but asking not to die pre-maturely in the Garden because the emotional stress he was under. Great example of how God will come to us when we are under such great stress and yet many don't preach it that way.

I agree with you on this aspect...

Wouldn't you agree also that to Jesus even worse than physical pain/suffering was the "seperation" he would face on the Cross, when he bore our sins, and God the Father forsook Him at that Moment?

Where in a sense, He felt/experience the "Hell" all sinners will before God and judgement?

 

[revmwc]

I agree with you on this aspect...

Wouldn't you agree also that to Jesus even worse than physical pain/suffering was the "seperation" he would face on the Cross, when he bore our sins, and God the Father forsook Him at that Moment?

Where in a sense, He felt/experience the "Hell" all sinners will before God and judgement?

He took our sin upon Him the sin of the whole world just that and the abandonment He knew was coming plus knowing how Judas would betray Him put Him under tremendous stress.

 

[percho]

I agree with you on this aspect...

Wouldn't you agree also that to Jesus even worse than physical pain/suffering was the "seperation" he would face on the Cross, when he bore our sins, and God the Father forsook Him at that Moment?

Where in a sense, He felt/experience the "Hell" all sinners will before God and judgement?

Is that the same "Hell" his soul, not his body, was not left in and was resurrected from three days later? Just how long did this forsaking last? The total time this once living soul was dead or just for a moment?

 

[revmwc]

Is that the same "Hell" his soul, not his body, was not left in and was resurrected from three days later? Just how long did this forsaking last? The total time this once living soul was dead or just for a moment?

No he went to the Paradise abode of Hades (Hell) upon dieing, not the torments abode. But He died a spiritual death on the cross in the term of spiritual death in the He was seperated from the Father and Holy Spirit while he hung upon the Cross, in His said My God, My God why hast thou foresakend me.

 

[percho]

No he went to the Paradise abode of Hades (Hell) upon dieing, not the torments abode. But He died a spiritual death on the cross in the term of spiritual death in the He was seperated from the Father and Holy Spirit while he hung upon the Cross, in His said My God, My God why hast thou foresakend me.

I guess these abodes are in eyeball distance however it appears it's up to paradise yet Down to Sheol/Hades


He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in paradise, neither his flesh did see corruption. Ummmmmm