The irony is you interpret corruptness using your Roman Catholic doctrine leader...Augustine. Go figure.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Did jesus Come In the "Likeness" Or "Exactness" of Human Flesh?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Sigh...I deny YOUR understanding of Scripture. You are not immutable truth. You read an awful lot into that passage in Genesis 1. That is called eisegesis.
The image of God is material and immaterial. There are also places in Scripture that state man is heart, mind, soul, strength. Why are you only tripartite since Scripture is so clear man is 5 or more parts? Do you deny Scripture?
Like I said, start a new thread on this if you like...don't derail this one.
Because God formed man in His image with a Body, Soul and Spirit.
Not derailing this one I answered and you and winman started asking about the OLD SIN NATURE, I just followed you tow guys lead.
So let's get back to the issue at hand.
Likeness or Exactness I guess those two terms need to be defined, so please define them.
I agree with you, I do not believe Jesus had a sin nature and have always said that.
That said, this argues that we are not born with a sin nature, as the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus was made like unto his brethren IN ALL THINGS, and that he was tempted IN ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin.
You don't have to be born with a sin nature to sin, Adam and Eve prove that. They were not created with a sin nature, yet they were both easily tempted, and both sinned.
Last edited by a moderator:
Adam and Eve were as you said created. Once sin entered into the world it continued and it continued as a sin nature in man. Paul is very clear on that teaching in Romans. He makes it clear that in him dwelleth no good thing. See Dr. Wallvoord's teaching that I posted here he explains it much better. Sorry I guess I hijacked you thread here for a while.
Sigh...I deny YOUR understanding of Scripture. You are not immutable truth. You read an awful lot into that passage in Genesis 1. That is called eisegesis.
The image of God is material and immaterial. There are also places in Scripture that state man is heart, mind, soul, strength. Why are you only tripartite since Scripture is so clear man is 5 or more parts? Do you deny Scripture?
Like I said, start a new thread on this if you like...don't derail this one.
Again you deny scriptural teaching wwith your view.
John 3:
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
For the second time, I deny YOUR understanding of scriptural teaching. It's mighty arrogant to believe your view is Scripture.
Simple formula
God The Father: Spirit
Holy Spirit: Spirit (obviously)
Jesus Christ: 100% God (Spirit) 100% Man (material)
I believe we are made in God's image. Your verse further supports dichotomy.
Last edited by a moderator:
That is the formula I have stated. So where am I wrong with scripture?
You say I ere show me how you think I ere.
Is God one in essence? Made of three persons?
I agree that we acquire a sin nature, but I do not believe we are born that way, just as Adam and Eve were not created with a sin nature, but acquired one after they sinned.
I see it like this, if Adam and Eve lived in a perfectly sinless world, yet were easily tempted by Satan's lie, how much more difficult is it for us to resist temptation when we are born into a world full of sins and temptations? Jesus said the flesh is weak, I believe this means it is easily tempted. Only when we receive the Holy Spirit and are partakers of the divine nature can we hope to have strength to overcome temptation. The old nature seeks only to fulfill it's lusts and desires, the new nature desires to fulfill God's commandments.
Last edited by a moderator:
Would you say that death was in birth pains trying to keep him from being birthed from the dead? Yet as it says in Col.1:18 and Rev.1:5 death could not hold him and he became the firstborn from the dead? I might also add so far the only so born.
glfredrick
New Member
This is Pelagian theology. Note that I am not CALLING you a Pelagian. I am saying that what you just wrote above is Pelagian. There is a difference, for you can recant your position and walk away from heresy or you can further walk into heresy. Your call...
I could care less what you call me, what do you think I am, a little kid who runs home crying when someone calls him a name?
This simply shows you cannot refute my arguments, so you resort to labeling someone as a heretic, oldest trick in the book.
The Catholics labeled thousands of folks heretics and executed them, does that prove they were correct?
Of course, the daughter will emulate her mother.
Was wondering if you read through the John Wallvoord points I posted?
No. The pains of death is the sting of death as Paul put it. The sting of death is sin.
glfredrick
New Member
I'm not calling you names... Get that straight first.
I am also not refuting your argument, for the core of your argument is Pelagian in scope and needs no refutation.
From Theopedia:
You are faced with two choices -- either own up to the fact that your theology is heretical or recant and discover a biblical theology.
I believe and most commentators say pains in Acts 2:24 is referring to birth pains.
Death was trying hold Christ in its realm Hades forgoing birth pains in doing so.
David Guzik's Commentaries
i. Having loosed the pains of death: In the phrase pains of death, the word pains is actually the word for "birth pains." In this sense, the tomb was a womb for Jesus! ii. "It was not possible that the chosen one of God should remain in the grip of death; 'the abyss can no more hold the Redeemer than a pregnant woman can hold the child in her body.'" (Bruce, quoting Bertram)
John Gill
or of what God did in raising Christ from the dead; he delivered him from the power of death, by which he was held in the grave, and which is expressed by a word which signifies pains and sorrows, even those of a woman in travail;
Robertson's Word Pictures
Early Christian writers interpreted the Resurrection of Christ as a birth out of death.
John Wesley
Verse 24. Having loosed the pains of death - The word properly means, the pains of a woman in travail. As it was not possible that he should be held under it - Because the Scripture must needs be fulfilled.
You don't even know what pelagianism is, so you should really stop calling anyone that. You have been told this enough, please learn from your pasted article. It's honestly scary to think you grade dissertations.
I do not believe man basically good, but I believe he is able to do some good.
I believe man was affected by the fall, but not in the way you think. I believe that sin introduced into the world provides greater exposure to temptation. We are exposed to far more temptation than Adam and Eve were and therefore are far more likely to sin... Evil communications corrupt good manners.
I believe it absolutely impossible for man to be saved without God's grace in revealing our sinfulness, and the remedy to our sin, Jesus Christ. Man of himself will always devise salvation through good works as all false man-made religions teach. I believe only the spiritual power of God's word can bring us to repentance, and the revelation of Christ enables our belief, it is impossible to believe in Jesus if you have never heard of him.
I do not believe natural man capable of earning salvation whatsoever. No matter how much good a man might do, he still has to pay for any sin he commits, and the wages of sin is death.
I believe that Jesus atoned for the sin of every person, not just the elect.
So, as you see, I am not Pelagian whatsoever.
It's a waste of time. I did the exact same thing you just did here...and he still likes to refer to me as pelagian. I think he just likes how it sounds.
In boxing it is called a low blow.
If what you're saying is that Christ felt the pains of death, then I'll agree, though I don't see how your focus is illuminating the meaning.
But if you're trying to say that death and hell felt the pains, then you've missed the point entirely. Death doesn't feel the pain. The dead feel the pain. And though the word is used to mean sorrow and bands as well, it is not death that is terrified by these things.
John Calvin
Having loosed the sorrows of death. By the sorrows of death I understand some farther thing than the bodily sense or feeling. For those which duly consider the nature of death, because they hear that it is the curse of God, must needs conceive that God is angry in death. Hence cometh marvelous horror, wherein there is greater misery than in death itself. Furthermore, Christ died upon this occasion that he might take upon him our guiltiness. That inward fear of conscience, which made him so afraid that he sweat blood when he presented himself before the throne and tribunal seat of God, did more vex him, and brought upon him greater horror, than all the torments of the flesh. And whereas Peter saith, that Christ did wrestle with such sorrows, and doth also declare that he had the victory, by this it cometh to pass that the faithful ought not now to be afraid of death; for death hath not the like quality now which was in Adam; because by the victory of Christ the curse is swallowed up, (1 Corinthians 15:54.) We feel, indeed, yet the pricking of sorrows, but such as do not wholly wound us, whilst that we hold up the buckler of faith against them. He added a reason, because it was impossible that Christ should be oppressed by death, who is the author of life.
John Gill
this may be understood either of what Christ had done for his people by dying for them; he had abolished death; he had took away its sting, and delivered them from the curse of it, having fulfilled the law, satisfied justice, and made full atonement for their sin; so that though they die, death is not a penal evil to them, nor shall they always continue under the power of it: or of what God did in raising Christ from the dead; he delivered him from the power of death, by which he was held in the grave, and which is expressed by a word which signifies pains and sorrows, even those of a woman in travail; which though he felt not now, he had gone through them; his low state in the grave was the effect of them; and these are said to be loosed when he was raised up, he being so entirely delivered from them, as that they should never come upon him more: and it is to be observed, that the same word in the Hebrew language, and so in the Chaldee and Syriac, in which Peter might speak, signifies both cords and sorrows; and we often read in Talmudic and Rabbinic writings, "the sorrows", or "pains" of the Messiah.
Matthew Henry
the sorrows of death; the word is used for travailing pains, and some think it signifies the trouble and agony of his soul, in which it was exceedingly sorrowful, even to the death; from these pains and sorrows of soul, this travail of soul, the Father loosed him when at his death he said, It is finished. Thus Dr. Godwin understands it: "Those terrors which made Heman's soul lie like the slain (Ps. lxxxviii. 5, 15) had hold of Christ; but he was too strong for them, and broke through them; this was the resurrection of his soul (and it is a great thing to bring a soul out of the depths of spiritual agonies); this was not leaving his soul in hell; as that which follows, that he should not see corruption, speaks of the resurrection of his body; and both together make up the great resurrection." Dr. Lightfoot gives another sense of this: "Having dissolved the pains of death, in reference to all that believe in him, God raised up Christ, and by his resurrection broke all the power of death, and destroyed its pangs upon his own people. He has abolished death, has altered the property of it, and, because it was not possible that he should be long holden of it, it is not possible that they should be for ever holden." But most refer this to the resurrection of Christ's body. And death (says Mr. Baxter) is by privation a penal state, though not dolorous by positive evil. But Dr. Hammond shows that the Septuagint, and from them the apostle here, uses the word for cords and bands (as Ps. xviii. 4), to which the metaphor of loosing and being held best agrees. Christ was imprisoned for our debt, was thrown into the bands of death; but, divine justice being satisfied, it was not possible he should be detained there, either by right or by force; for he had life in himself, and in his own power, and had conquered the prince of death.