jasonlevene
New Member
If not, then why did he ask God the Father to nullify Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 by taking the cup/cross away from him?
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Did Jesus desire evil in Gethsemane?
- Thread starter jasonlevene
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Brother Ian
Active Member
Jesus would have preferred another way. Who wants to die a gruesome and painful death? But....Jesus put aside His desire for the Father's.
Matthew 26:39, "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
There was never a doubt He would go to the cross and therefore never a chance to nullify the prophecy in Genesis 3.
Matthew 26:39, "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
There was never a doubt He would go to the cross and therefore never a chance to nullify the prophecy in Genesis 3.
jasonlevene
New Member
But wouldn't you agree that Jesus desired evil in that he wanted God the Father to cancel the prophecies requiring him to go through his suffering (take this cup away from me)?
There's nothing in those prophecies that states that Jesus couldn't desire another way if possible. Conflicting desires are not necessarily evil.
Does God do evil by desiring that all men would come to the knowledge of the truth, when His own word says that not all will do so?
jasonlevene
New Member
There's nothing in those prophecies that states that Jesus couldn't desire another way if possible. Conflicting desires are not necessarily evil.
Does God do evil by desiring that all men would come to the knowledge of the truth, when His own word says that not all will do so? </font>[/QUOTE]What you describe is an anthropomorphism...or God expressing things to us for our uncertain human benefit. For example, after Adam and Eve sinned, God asked them 'where are you?' (Genesis 3:9) Are we to believe an ommiscient omnipresent God did not know where Adam and Eve were? Or what about when God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac to test his faith. Are we to believe God did not know the depth of Abraham's faith? No...unless we are dealing with a God who is llmited in his knowledge and whereabouts. So in like fashion God wants all people saved. But in all actuality, he knows all who are saved and all who are not. There is never any conflict between his uncertain expressions and his actual will.
In the case with Gethsemane however, Jesus acknowledged that it was the Father's will for him to drink of that cup (Matt. 26:42). And by his asking for that cup to have been taken away from him, he was asking for the nullification of the Father's will. And the nullification of YHWH altogether.
jasonlevene
New Member
I disagree. According to James 1:14-15 it is only when one gratifies an evil desire that one becomes a sinner.
I disagree. According to James 1:14-15 it is only when one gratifies an evil desire that one becomes a sinner. </font>[/QUOTE]Be sure you let Jesus know that lusting after a woman in your heart isn't really a sin unless you gratify those desires. I'm sure He will want to modify that sermon of His, and maybe issue an apology. (It might make a lot of us sleep a little better too.)
[ November 12, 2005, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: whatever ]
If He hadn't included that part about "nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will" in verse 39 and "your will be done" in verse 42 then maybe you might have something to work with. But He did, so you don't.
Since you've pulled the anthropomorphism card, let's try it from another angle. Paul stated that his "heart's desire and prayer to God for [Israel] is that they may be saved", after having gone so far as to say that "I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh". Yet obviously God had prophesied that Israel would reject their Messiah. Did Paul desire evil when wishing that God's prophecy concerning Israel had not been fulfilled?
Brother Ian
Active Member
Sticking with the OP, just because Jesus wanted it to be done another way does not make the thought evil.
There is an old and honored interpretation going back to Dionysius (c. 190-c. 264), a church father, that Jesus was not praying in the Garden to be delivered from the cup of death on the cross, but from a premature cup of death in the Garden. More modern writers such as John R. Rice, F. B. Meyer and A. F. Schauffler also held this position, as do I.
The position is borne out by Scriptures such as:
(1) Matt. 26:38, which states that Jesus was "very sorrowful even unto death." The Greek words used here are extremely strong.
(2) Luke 22:44: "And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." This describes a medical condition of extreme stress called hematidrosis.
(3) Hebrews 5:7: "Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared." This could only refer to the prayers in the Garden. He prayed to be delivered from death in the Garden, and was heard.
Jesus had "set His face towards Jerusalem" to die on the cross for our sins. In spite of incredible stress (the betrayal of Judas, being abandoned by His disciples and unbelieving siblings, being hated by His own people, facing taking the sins of all of history on Himself), He triumphed and survived death in the Garden in order to die on the cross. Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!
The position is borne out by Scriptures such as:
(1) Matt. 26:38, which states that Jesus was "very sorrowful even unto death." The Greek words used here are extremely strong.
(2) Luke 22:44: "And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." This describes a medical condition of extreme stress called hematidrosis.
(3) Hebrews 5:7: "Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared." This could only refer to the prayers in the Garden. He prayed to be delivered from death in the Garden, and was heard.
Jesus had "set His face towards Jerusalem" to die on the cross for our sins. In spite of incredible stress (the betrayal of Judas, being abandoned by His disciples and unbelieving siblings, being hated by His own people, facing taking the sins of all of history on Himself), He triumphed and survived death in the Garden in order to die on the cross. Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!
jasonlevene
New Member
If He hadn't included that part about "nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will" in verse 39 and "your will be done" in verse 42 then maybe you might have something to work with. But He did, so you don't.
Since you've pulled the anthropomorphism card, let's try it from another angle. Paul stated that his "heart's desire and prayer to God for [Israel] is that they may be saved", after having gone so far as to say that "I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh". Yet obviously God had prophesied that Israel would reject their Messiah. Did Paul desire evil when wishing that God's prophecy concerning Israel had not been fulfilled? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't see what Paul's wishes have to do with anthropomophisms. But as to your question. Peter wanted to prevent Jesus from going to Jerusalem and getting killed. Now on the surface that appears like a noble desire...to prevent the murder of one's friend but what did Jesus say to Peter? 'Get thee behind me Satan' (Matt. 16:21-23). Why? Because not killing Jesus would have meant the nullification of the prophecies requiring his death. So did Paul desire evil by wishing that Israel accept the Messiah against God's will? The answer is yes.
And I don't see how Jesus' words 'nevertheless not my will but your's be done' conflict with the fact that he wanted the Father's will nullified so he could have been spared of the cross.
I mean don't you agree that he wanted the Father's will (that he drink of the cup) nullified in asking that the cup be taken away from him?
jasonlevene
New Member
I disagree with this interpretation because Jesus said in Matthew 26:42 that 'if this cup can not pass away from me unless I drink it, thy will be done.' So if the cup were a premature death in Gethsemane, then he was accepting the fact that God's will required him to drink of the cup...or die prematurely in Gethsemane. This can not be the case.
When I showed God doing it you got around it by saying it was an anthropomorphism. So I showed Paul doing it (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit) so you'd have to address the question. And to your credit, you did.
I don't think what Peter did in his ignorance is in any way comparable to what Paul wished for his kinsmen. I strongly disagree with your conclusion.
At some level He did, but not ultimately, because He did ultimately obey His Father. What I am saying is that it is not necessarily evil to desire that something happen even though God has decreed that it will not happen.
Have you heard the expression, "No pain, no gain"? It is not evil to want to avoid the pain, it is evil to not to want the gain. Jesus didn't want to pain (the sufferings surrounding and including the cross). It would have been insane to want it. He did want the gain (Not my will but thine). It would have been evil to not want the gain.
Is this whole OP question an example of just having a question for the sake of saying you question everything?
Sometimes "question everything" can be taken too far, to the point where you are no longer questioning for the sake of learning, but are now questioning because you want to remain a skeptic.
Are ya trying to give some evidence that Jesus had an evil thought and so was not perfect?
Sometimes "question everything" can be taken too far, to the point where you are no longer questioning for the sake of learning, but are now questioning because you want to remain a skeptic.
Are ya trying to give some evidence that Jesus had an evil thought and so was not perfect?
Bapmom, check jasonlevene's website and you will see that he has a private interpretation for this passage, shared by no one in evangelicalism or fundamentalism.
I disagree with this interpretation because Jesus said in Matthew 26:42 that 'if this cup can not pass away from me unless I drink it, thy will be done.' So if the cup were a premature death in Gethsemane, then he was accepting the fact that God's will required him to drink of the cup...or die prematurely in Gethsemane. This can not be the case. </font>[/QUOTE]But He did say "this cup," meaning the cup he was facing right then, not "the cup," which would mean death on the cross. And if was a conditional clause beginning with the Greek word "ei," meaning "if," not "since I must drink the cup."