Did Jesus Dishonor His Earthly Parents?

[Iconoclast]

All the above is absolute nonsense, the product of disgraceful imagination. Makes as much sense as the gospel of paul, invented out of whole cloth as some would say!

Yes agreed this is a wicked posting.Something is very wrong here.

 

[beameup]

All the above is absolute nonsense, the product of disgraceful imagination. Makes as much sense as the gospel of paul, invented out of whole cloth as some would say!

Catholics believe in the "Holy Family", I don't.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows,
and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him;
he was despised, and we esteemed him not. - Isa 53:3

I find you very pharisaical, a very angry person.
Perhaps it would be good if you read the "fruits of the Holy Spirit".
However, I am quite used to and acquainted in Carnal Christians who are not directed by the Holy Spirit.

His mother may have thought more of him than anyone else,
however it was well rumored that he was "born of fornication"
and I'm sure that most probably falsely believed that.
Any mother that truly knew and understood what he was,
would have kept very close watch on him. She didn't, therefore
she didn't.
His Heavenly Father kept "close watch" on him.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking,
be put away from you, with all malice: - Eph 4:31

 

[Mark_13]

The more I think of it, its clear that Jesus, once finding himself within the confines of the temple, the designated house of God, just knew intuitively he belonged there, along with God the Father in the Holy of Holies evidently. He indicates surprise that his parents did not recognize the same thing - but should they have? At any rate once its clear that his parents want him to go back to Nazareth, he dutifully obeys, as is remarked on in the last verse of the passage. So the passage itself is portraying how he did honor his parents, by returning to Nazareth. What is noteworthy is that he wasn't omniscient, assuming that his parents knew he would remain there when they didn't. So simultaneously a kind of child-like naivete, along with an astonishing statement of his divinity. In a sense, it all seems a little convenient, contrived as a narrative, not saying I don't believe it.

 

[OldRegular]

I find you very pharisaical, a very angry person.
Perhaps it would be good if you read the "fruits of the Holy Spirit".
However, I am quite used to and acquainted in Carnal Christians who are not directed by the Holy Spirit.

beameup

Some weeks back you were borderline close, as you are now, to questioning my Salvation. Your post on which I commented was despicable and false. It denies a mothers love and the brevity of Scripture dealing with that love, part of which Scarlett O reminded you.

As for your association with carnal Christians that is your choice and your problem.

 

[agedman]

Some have a wrong idea about the relationship Jesus had with his parents and with the community.

Look at the Scriptures!!!!
(after they left the temple)

And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man. ​

Those of you who want to consider him rejected and sorrow filled even by his parents stand in contrast to what this scripture teaches.

 

[Aaron]

Absolutely not. It's literally impossible for Jesus to have dishonoured his parents because that is a sin.

To me, the BIGGER question is how can two grown adults not know where their kid is for THREE DAYS?!?!?

Mary: "Joseph! Where is Jesus?"

Joseph: "Gosh, honey, I thought he was with YOU!"

Mary: "I thought he was with YOU"!

Mary and Joseph: "AAAUUUGGGHH!!"

Then they blame each and then when they find their kid, they blame the kid.

It happens every day.

Though it's a certainty that the group with which Mary and Joseph was travelling was huge, you're right that the oversight was on the part of Mary and Joseph. 12 years with Jesus, a model child and in every way trustworthy, responsible, and wise beyond His years; and being assured of God's protection of His own Son, I doubt Mary and Joseph gave Jesus much thought—not in the way one would of a natural child. Sloth certainly takes occassion with assurance.

When Mary and Joseph realized their oversight, just like natural parents they feared the worst. They had forgotten with Whom they were dealing, and Christ's answer was a gentle rebuke of their doubt and fear. It was not a protest of their coming to a take Him with them.

 

[beameup]

beameup

As for your association with carnal Christians that is your choice and your problem.

It's pretty clear where you are "coming from".

It is impossible for me NOT to associate with
Carnal Ego-directed Christians as they are
the vast majority in the U.S. By "associate",
I have little in common with them as
they are driven by ego/self and have no
"fruit". They are most miserable IMO,
and are full of anger, malice, bitterness.

I don't "question their salvation".
They are CARNAL Self-directed Ego-directed Christians,
but Christians nonetheless.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking,
be put away from you, with all malice: - Eph 4:31

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness,
faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Gal 5:22-23

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,
but as unto carnal, even as unto babies in Christ. - 1 Cor 3:1

 

[kyredneck]

Though it's a certainty that the group with which Mary and Joseph was travelling was huge, you're right that the oversight was on the part of Mary and Joseph. 12 years with Jesus, a model child and in every way trustworthy, responsible, and wise beyond His years; and being assured of God's protection of His own Son, I doubt Mary and Joseph gave Jesus much thought—not in the way one would of a natural child. Sloth certainly takes occassion with assurance.

When Mary and Joseph realized their oversight, just like natural parents they feared the worst. They had forgotten with Whom they were dealing, and Christ's answer was a gentle rebuke of their doubt and fear. It was not a protest of their coming to a take Him with them.

Excellent post.

 

[jaigner]

Here's a tidbit. Jesus never addressed Mary as "mother" until He was on the cross, but he addressed her as mother to the disciple He loved.

What the heck?!? The Bible obviously doesn't give the entire account of Jesus' life. There is nothing theologically to be drawn from this.

 

[Mark_13]

Though it's a certainty that the group with which Mary and Joseph was travelling was huge, you're right that the oversight was on the part of Mary and Joseph. 12 years with Jesus, a model child and in every way trustworthy, responsible, and wise beyond His years; and being assured of God's protection of His own Son, I doubt Mary and Joseph gave Jesus much thought—not in the way one would of a natural child. Sloth certainly takes occassion with assurance.

When Mary and Joseph realized their oversight, just like natural parents they feared the worst. They had forgotten with Whom they were dealing, and Christ's answer was a gentle rebuke of their doubt and fear. It was not a protest of their coming to a take Him with them.

There was not an issue with Jesus' reply to Mary when she found him. That wasn't the dishonor - rather it was him ostensibly subjecting his parents to needless worry when even a normal child would presumably know they would be worried. So, if he knew his parents expected him to return to Nazareth, and then stayed behind for days anyway, would not even an ordinary 12 year old known his parents would be worried.

Imagine a 12 year old on a trip to town from the farm with his family to visit the circus (say in the early 1900's or something). And this 12 year old is so enthralled with it all, he decides to stay behind and join the circus. So his parents leave and he stays behind for days, hanging around the lions cage, offering to do chores etc. Would that be a sin for that 12 year old to do that?

I'm not saying there's a direct comparison here, but that's what's at issue.

In the case of Jesus, he was undoubtedly being detained by other authority figures there in the temple, who were peppering him with questions. But the only way I see Jesus not dishonoring his parents, is if he truly was not aware that they expected him to return with them. But we know he was not continually omniscient, even as an adult. And Jesus in fact expresses incredulity to Mary, when she indicates she *had* expected him to return to Nazareth. So that's the explanation as I see it - he didn't know. (And as I said previously, the incident indicates he thought of himself as God even at that age, as he says the God of the temple was his father. And later in life the Jewish rulers tried to stone him when he said that.)

 

[Jerome]

John Calvin notes that Jesus repelled Mary quite rashly at the wedding at Cana (John 2:4 "Woman, what have I to do with thee?"):

why does he absolutely refuse to his mother what he freely granted afterwards, on so many occasions, to all sorts of persons? Again, why is he not satisfied with a bare refusal? and why does he reduce her to the ordinary rank of women, and not even deign to call her mother? This saying of Christ openly and manifestly warns men to beware lest, by too superstitiously elevating the honor of the name of mother in the Virgin Mary, they transfer to her what belongs exclusively to God.

Calvin also notes that Jesus disparaged His relationship with Mary when told she was waiting to see Him (Matt. 12:48 "Who is my mother?"):

These words were unquestionably intended to reprove Mary’s eagerness, and she certainly acted improperly in attempting to interrupt the progress of his discourse. At the same time, by disparaging the relationship of flesh and blood, our Lord teaches a very useful doctrine; for he admits all his disciples and all believers to the same honorable rank, as if they were his nearest relatives, or rather he places them in the room of his mother and brethren.

 

[glfredrick]

repeat post

 

[Mark_13]

I'm thinking that Jesus must have known that at the very least, he was dedicated to God by his parents, in a very special way. And I'm sure he knew the story of Samuel, the first and greatest Judge of Israel, and that Samuel as well was born through miracle and had been dedicated to God as a child by his mother. And Samuel as well was turned over to the temple and the temple priest in dedication. So undoubtedly Jesus thought his parents intended to do the same (though they didn't).

 

[glfredrick]

Luke 2:41-51 records the familiar account of Jesus when He was 12 YO about His visit to the temple at Jerusalem.

I've often wondered if Jesus could be charged of dishonoring His earthly parents by not telling them where He was so that they wouldn't have had to back track to Jerusalem after three days to find Him debating with the doctors in the temple.

What say ye?

No... Next! :laugh:

 

[Mark_13]

Jerome #31 - really good reply, specifically to jaigner at #29. There should be a 'like' button activated for posts in this forum

 

[OldRegular]

It's pretty clear where you are "coming from".

It is impossible for me NOT to associate with
Carnal Ego-directed Christians as they are
the vast majority in the U.S. By "associate",
I have little in common with them as
they are driven by ego/self and have no
"fruit". They are most miserable IMO,
and are full of anger, malice, bitterness.

I don't "question their salvation".
They are CARNAL Self-directed Ego-directed Christians,
but Christians nonetheless.

beameup,

Read the following. You might learn something. Elijah did!

1 Kings 19:9-18
9. And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?
10. And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
11. And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
12. And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
13. And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
14. And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
15. And the LORD said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria:
16. And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room.
17. And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay.
18. Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

 

[mandym]

Luke 2:41-51 records the familiar account of Jesus when He was 12 YO about His visit to the temple at Jerusalem.

I've often wondered if Jesus could be charged of dishonoring His earthly parents by not telling them where He was so that they wouldn't have had to back track to Jerusalem after three days to find Him debating with the doctors in the temple.

What say ye?

Can Jesus ever be charged with disobeying scripture or sinning? Why ask questions that have obvious answers?

 

[Scarlett O.]

John Calvin notes that Jesus repelled Mary quite rashly at the wedding at Cana (John 2:4 "Woman, what have I to do with thee?"):



Calvin also notes that Jesus disparaged His relationship with Mary when told she was waiting to see Him (Matt. 12:48 "Who is my mother?"):

Jerome, I know it's John Calvin you are quoting, but he is off track here and I'm saying that as kindly as I can.

One doesn't have to portray Jesus as man who browbeats his mother and puts her in her place to show that the Catholic view of Mary is wrong. Mary is not and was not divine - we all know that.

But the polar opposite - the notion of her being a bad mother, not dedicating Jesus to the Temple, Jesus having to rebuke her rashly and put her in her place - to warn future generations not to venerate her - that's not true either.

When Jesus said "Who is my mother?", He also said "Who are my brothers?" Mary and her other sons were ALL looking for Jesus. He didn't say that to dismiss her and strip her of this supposed bossiness as Calvin implies, whe he said that "she was acting improper and too eagerly in trying to interrupt Him."

She wasn't trying to interrupt Him. Nor were his brothers. They were looking for Him. Possibly trying to save Him.

I don't see Jesus as a man who "rashly rebukes" his mother or who "tries to diparage the flesh and blood relationship" He had with her.

Jesus was a man who, while dying on the cross, and suffering untold spiritual and physical agonies - a man whom Isaiah prophecies as not even looking HUMAN in his abused state - who BECAME sin for the whole world - and yet even in that horrible time, His concern was "who is going to take care of my mother?"

This is not a man who rebuked his mother nor rashly tried to sever the ties of flesh and blood between He and her.

I think Calvin is wrong here.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I'm thinking that Jesus must have known that at the very least, he was dedicated to God by his parents, in a very special way. And I'm sure he knew the story of Samuel, the first and greatest Judge of Israel, and that Samuel as well was born through miracle and had been dedicated to God as a child by his mother. And Samuel as well was turned over to the temple and the temple priest in dedication. So undoubtedly Jesus thought his parents intended to do the same (though they didn't).

Just a couple of things, brother. First, welcome to the board. I hope you stay awhile. Please don't take what I have to say as anything but friendly chatter.

Samuel was not the first judge. He was the last. His birth was only miraculous in that God heard the prayers of Hannah, his mother. His birth really can't be compared to Christ's birth.

Yes, Samuel was dedicated to God. Hannah made a vow that if God would give her a son, that she would give him back. But he wasn't given to the Temple. There was no Temple when Samuel was born. He was given to the priests at Shiloh.

The Temple was not built for along time to come. Samuel has to grow up, serve as a prophet under Saul, then under David. David had to die and Solomon became king then Solomon built the Temple. I don't think Samuel ever saw the Temple as he died and Nathan was prophet during the latter part of David's reign.

And why would Jesus expect to become a mere Temple priest or be dedicated to serve there?

Jesus didn't come for that. His Priesthood was vastly different.

...
Hebrews 6:20 - “Where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek,”

Hebrews 9:11 - "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation..."

And Jesus was Prophet and Priest and King and Lamb and Sacrifice. He was and is everything.

To put him in a man-made Temple and have him serve there would have limited Him severely. It isn't what He came for.

Hope to chat with you more! :flower:

 

[Amy.G]

Excellent post Scarlett. It shows that you are a teacher. :thumbs: