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Did Jesus drink Alchol?
- Thread starter Su Wei
- Start date
I think you misunderstood me rsr, I did not say that the wine was the equivalent of coke, I said drinking it would be similar to us drinking water or cokes (though I think I should have obstained from using the analogy of water because it doesn't contain the same weight). The people did not think of it in any type of negative connotation, but they did see those who drank it in heavy doses in a negative light. I was simply making an allusion to how nonchalantly they drank it, the same nonchalant way that we drink cokes. We know not to drink too much, knowing it is bad for our kidneys, and they did not drink too much knowing that it would cause them to be drunk. First century Jews and Christians just don't look down on it like we do. Abstinance is truly just a Baptist and conservative thing. But I wouldn't compare it to beer, since most of us probably wouldn't drink beer without a second thought and certainly many of our peers would not watch us drink beer without a second thought. My main point of my last post was that if wine were as alcoholic as it is today, then they would not have been able to drink it as freely, since one glass could have caused them to become slightly tipsy (as it does to some today). They drank it seemingly without much worry in abundance, as the account of Jesus first miracle seems to suggest. Hope that cleared it up,
dr
dr
DR, fermenting wine is an ages old process, practiced by just about every culture on the earth. Not just the Jews, but the Romans, the Egyptians, the Greeks, etc etc etc. The frementation process, then as well as now, resulted in an average alcohol content of about 12%.
The idea that OT references to wine having less alcohol is speculative at best. Also, it was customary to often add wine to water, but water with wine in it was still referred to as water, not wine. The reason was not for disinfection (12% alcohol was an ineffective disinfecting tool). Welled water was often bitter due to the mineral content. The addition of wine would counteract the bitter aftertaste and make the water more palatable. Wine consumed during feasts and celebrtation such as the Sabbath and Passover would have been consumed straight from the bottle to the cup. Often, bread in the meal was used to wife the redisue in a wine cup, and then eaten, as part of proper dining etiquette. That's one of the origins of the intinction comminion tradition (dipping the bread in the wine/juice and eating the bread).
The idea that OT references to wine having less alcohol is speculative at best. Also, it was customary to often add wine to water, but water with wine in it was still referred to as water, not wine. The reason was not for disinfection (12% alcohol was an ineffective disinfecting tool). Welled water was often bitter due to the mineral content. The addition of wine would counteract the bitter aftertaste and make the water more palatable. Wine consumed during feasts and celebrtation such as the Sabbath and Passover would have been consumed straight from the bottle to the cup. Often, bread in the meal was used to wife the redisue in a wine cup, and then eaten, as part of proper dining etiquette. That's one of the origins of the intinction comminion tradition (dipping the bread in the wine/juice and eating the bread).
Rakka Rage
New Member
0.2$
imo it cannot be proven 100% either way... but most references (including the first) to wine in the bible are bad. if wine itself is not wrong... at least drunkenness/addiction is...
1Cor.6
[12] All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
here is an old ad for some cocaine laced wine featuring the pope... for your entertainment
http://cocaine.org/popecoke.htm
imo it cannot be proven 100% either way... but most references (including the first) to wine in the bible are bad. if wine itself is not wrong... at least drunkenness/addiction is...
1Cor.6
[12] All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
here is an old ad for some cocaine laced wine featuring the pope... for your entertainment
http://cocaine.org/popecoke.htm
Matthew 16:24
New Member
So what is the conclusion guys?
Wine is okay?
what about beer?
or mixed drinks that have the same alcohol content of wine?
I want to know so I can maybe start drinking again.
What is moderation?
One glass of wine?
What if I have an empty stomach?
one glass may be too much?
Could I mix one Oz of wine to 8 Oz 7 Up?
A diluted wine cooler!
If I get a buzz from drinking in moderation, is that a sin even though it may have been only from one glass?
Wine is okay?
what about beer?
or mixed drinks that have the same alcohol content of wine?
I want to know so I can maybe start drinking again.
What is moderation?
One glass of wine?
What if I have an empty stomach?
one glass may be too much?
Could I mix one Oz of wine to 8 Oz 7 Up?
A diluted wine cooler!
If I get a buzz from drinking in moderation, is that a sin even though it may have been only from one glass?
Sounds like you want someone to make a legalistic rule for you to follow. You should be led by the Spirit instead.Originally posted by Matthew 16:24:
So what is the conclusion guys?
Wine is okay?
what about beer?
or mixed drinks that have the same alcohol content of wine?
I want to know so I can maybe start drinking again.
What is moderation?
One glass of wine?
What if I have an empty stomach?
one glass may be too much?
Could I mix one Oz of wine to 8 Oz 7 Up?
A diluted wine cooler!
If I get a buzz from drinking in moderation, is that a sin even though it may have been only from one glass?
TheOliveBranch
New Member
What is the conclusion? Abstain from all alcohol and there wouldn't be a question.
timothy 1769
New Member
ok, if jesus drank alcohol, was he ever intoxicated, even slightly?
timothy 1769
New Member
yes, it is clear. my question is this: did the alcohol have ANY intoxicating effect on him?
timothy 1769
New Member
i have a reason
I'm sure you do, so I hope you don't mind if I speculate.
If I consume wine at a rate of, let's say, a glass an hour, I won't feel the effects of alcohol. If I consume more than that, and I start to feel the effects, then I immediately stop. One could question, upon me starting to feel the effects, whether I'm actually drunk according to biblical standards, or whether I've simply reached the point where I need to refrain from consuming any more. The question to that is, I don't know. I rarely drink, and when I do, it's in small quantities, and I can count the number of times I've felt the effect in the last year on no hands.
I think the bottom line when it comes to alcohol is, listen to your body. When you need to stop, it will tell you. If you aren't good at listening to your body, it's best not to drink.
So whether or not Jesus ever "felt" the effects of alcohol, my $.02 is probably not. But if he did, then that simply leads to whether or not feeling the initial effects is being drunk, according the the bible. Thats a debate which will simply prove nothing other than for each of us to voice our $.02, and not answer any real biblical questions here.
Did I hit the nail on the head, or should I beat that hammer a little more???
If I consume wine at a rate of, let's say, a glass an hour, I won't feel the effects of alcohol. If I consume more than that, and I start to feel the effects, then I immediately stop. One could question, upon me starting to feel the effects, whether I'm actually drunk according to biblical standards, or whether I've simply reached the point where I need to refrain from consuming any more. The question to that is, I don't know. I rarely drink, and when I do, it's in small quantities, and I can count the number of times I've felt the effect in the last year on no hands.
I think the bottom line when it comes to alcohol is, listen to your body. When you need to stop, it will tell you. If you aren't good at listening to your body, it's best not to drink.
So whether or not Jesus ever "felt" the effects of alcohol, my $.02 is probably not. But if he did, then that simply leads to whether or not feeling the initial effects is being drunk, according the the bible. Thats a debate which will simply prove nothing other than for each of us to voice our $.02, and not answer any real biblical questions here.
Did I hit the nail on the head, or should I beat that hammer a little more???
timothy 1769
New Member
while that's a good point, that's not what i had in mind. i don't think jesus could have ever felt any effects from alcohol since those effects are changes in perception and behavior. jesus's perception and behavior were always ideal for his incarnate state. i think it's silly to imagine jesus as being "not at his best" in terms of perception and behavior. any other views?
But that doesn't sound much like a human being... Jesus was also human and He got very tired and needed rest -- when you're tired, your perceptions are affected.
Mark 7
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
I realize that this has its complications.
My sons and I are amateur mycologists (mushroom pickers) as were several of our forefathers (Italian). We especially like chanterelle mushrooms, quite delicious.
Morels are now coming into season here.
However, every year people go out into the forest here in Washington State to gather psilocybe "magic" mushrooms in season (several poison themselves because they pick the wrong kind) with the explicit desire to eat them and have an hallucinogenic "trip".
Jesus said that it is not what goes into us that defiles but that which comes out of the heart.
With the mushrooms it is evident, it is the thought which precedes the mushroom picking that causes the picking itself.
Why do people pick the mushrooms and the variety? To enjoy them as food or to get "high", breaking the law, losing control of behavior and giving themselves over to halucinations.
Similarly (imo) the reason for the use of the alcoholic beverage is the root of the problem, if it is indeed a problem in the individual's life.
If a Christian uses alcohol to drown sorrows or alter the state of consciousness to the point of drunkeness then imo there is a problem.
Besides that, drunkeness is a sujective thing.
In some states 1 strong drink (for some people) will make that person legally intoxicated and would break the law to drive a vehicle.
Another factor; What about wounding our brethren by the use of our liberty?
The alcohol (imo) is not the problem but the attitude towards the alcohol.
If one believes that alcohol is just plain wrong (for whatever the reason) then abstain. Because if one knows to do right (abstain) and then doesn't do it then for that one, it is sin.
In my own case, I was brought up in an Italian culture where wine is considered a good and healthy thing and I enjoy wine as a food/beverage and a natural medicine. However, I take my cue from my local church and abstain when I know there will be offense while in fellowship there.
Did Jesus use alcohol? Yes, I believe He did...
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
HankD
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
I realize that this has its complications.
My sons and I are amateur mycologists (mushroom pickers) as were several of our forefathers (Italian). We especially like chanterelle mushrooms, quite delicious.
Morels are now coming into season here.
However, every year people go out into the forest here in Washington State to gather psilocybe "magic" mushrooms in season (several poison themselves because they pick the wrong kind) with the explicit desire to eat them and have an hallucinogenic "trip".
Jesus said that it is not what goes into us that defiles but that which comes out of the heart.
With the mushrooms it is evident, it is the thought which precedes the mushroom picking that causes the picking itself.
Why do people pick the mushrooms and the variety? To enjoy them as food or to get "high", breaking the law, losing control of behavior and giving themselves over to halucinations.
Similarly (imo) the reason for the use of the alcoholic beverage is the root of the problem, if it is indeed a problem in the individual's life.
If a Christian uses alcohol to drown sorrows or alter the state of consciousness to the point of drunkeness then imo there is a problem.
Besides that, drunkeness is a sujective thing.
In some states 1 strong drink (for some people) will make that person legally intoxicated and would break the law to drive a vehicle.
Another factor; What about wounding our brethren by the use of our liberty?
The alcohol (imo) is not the problem but the attitude towards the alcohol.
If one believes that alcohol is just plain wrong (for whatever the reason) then abstain. Because if one knows to do right (abstain) and then doesn't do it then for that one, it is sin.
In my own case, I was brought up in an Italian culture where wine is considered a good and healthy thing and I enjoy wine as a food/beverage and a natural medicine. However, I take my cue from my local church and abstain when I know there will be offense while in fellowship there.
Did Jesus use alcohol? Yes, I believe He did...
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
HankD
TheOliveBranch
New Member
But if you use this reasoning, then IMHO, He would not drink wine because it may become a stumblingblock to the one having a problem controling themself, as He did sit amongst the publicans and sinners. Seems to be one more reason why Jesus wouldn't drink alcoholic wine.
Funny you should mention it...
Matthew 11
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
HankD