Did Jesus Drink Alcoholic Beverages?

[Smoky]

OK, but I think the leaven can be strained or boiled away from the juice, preventing the juice from fermenting. In Is. 25:6 "well refined" means to strain, extract, purge or Purify. I think that means to remove whatever causes it to ferment, namely the albuminous yeast. Notice the Strong definition of "wine well refined":
zaqaq, zaw-kak'; a primitive root; to strain, (figurative) extract, clarify :- fine, pour down, purge, purify, refine.

 

[Smoky]

I think probably, though, that when the Jews of that time thought of leven, they referred to the leven added to the bread to make it rise. I doubt they new anything about the chemical composition of the grape hull, identifying it as "leven"
Smokey

 

[gekko]

deejay quoted "since whoever eats what is leavened, that same person shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel,"

i dont know about you - but i sure dont eat grape juice. nor do i eat water. nor do i eat any kind of liquid.

notice it says "eats what is leavened"

do you eat wine? i sure dont chew on my mango juice. nor on my concentrated orange juice.

 

[DeeJay]

Originally posted by gekko:
deejay quoted "since whoever eats what is leavened, that same person shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel,"

i dont know about you - but i sure dont eat grape juice. nor do i eat water. nor do i eat any kind of liquid.

notice it says "eats what is leavened"

do you eat wine? i sure dont chew on my mango juice. nor on my concentrated orange juice.

Gekko you are trying to hard to make your case. Let me just quote the first part of the scripture so you are not distracted

For seven days no leaven shall be found in your houses
Exodus 12:19

This is not something old only. Jews remove all leaven from their houses before the passover even today.

 

[DeeJay]

Originally posted by Smoky:
I think probably, though, that when the Jews of that time thought of leven, they referred to the leven added to the bread to make it rise. I doubt they new anything about the chemical composition of the grape hull, identifying it as "leven"
Smokey

I dont think they knew about the "chemical compsition" or exactly how it worked. But they for sure knew that grape juice containd leaven. How, leaven makes things ferment.

 

[DeeJay]

Originally posted by Smoky:
OK, but I think the leaven can be strained or boiled away from the juice, preventing the juice from fermenting. In Is. 25:6 "well refined" means to strain, extract, purge or Purify. I think that means to remove whatever causes it to ferment, namely the albuminous yeast. Notice the Strong definition of "wine well refined":
zaqaq, zaw-kak'; a primitive root; to strain, (figurative) extract, clarify :- fine, pour down, purge, purify, refine.

Leaven can not be strained or filtered. Wine is often filtered and strained during the fermentation process for clarity and it does not affect the yeast in any way. Wine is strained and filtered 4 to 6 times during the process depending on the type of wine and how much sedement at the bottom of the bottle bothers you.

I have to check on the boiling. Fermentation in wine can be stoped prematurly by pasteurization or temporarily by refrigeration. I dont think just boiling will work because I boil beer wort and it ferments fine. But I am not sure. I will check.

 

[DeeJay]

In Is. 25:6 "well refined" means to strain, extract, purge or Purify.

Smoky

And in this mountain
The LORD of hosts will make for all people
A feast of choice pieces,
A feast of wines on the lees,
Of fat things full of marrow,
Of well-refined wines on the lees.
Isaiah 25:6

Lees refers to the sediment that you get when wine ferments. You get alot of sediment and you siphon it thru a filter to a different carboy leaving behind the lees (sediment) the more times you syphon and leave the sediment the clearer it becomes. The clearer the finer the wine.

You let red wines sit on the lees for a while so the wine can pick up color and taste then you start to syphon and filter.

Grape juice never has lees, it is the process of fermentation that causes lees (sediment). The fact that this verse referres to lees or sediment is PROOF POSITIVE that it is fermented.

The longer a red sits on lees the darker it is and the more full bodied it is. Thank you for finding this. I think the wine in Heaven will be red wine.

 

[DeeJay]

Definition

lees

n : the sediment from fermentation of an alcoholic beverage

lees

(Heb. shemarim), from a word meaning to keep or preserve. It was applied to
"lees" from the custom of allowing wine to stand on the lees that it might
thereby be better preserved (Isa. 25:6). "Men settled on their lees" (Zeph.
1:12) are men "hardened or crusted." The image is derived from the crust formed
at the bottom of wines long left undisturbed (Jer. 48:11). The effect of wealthy
undisturbed ease on the ungodly is hardening. They become stupidly secure (comp.
Ps. 55:19; Amos 6:1). To drink the lees (Ps. 75:8) denotes severe suffering.

Dictionary.com

 

[DeeJay]

I found this on a advertisement for an Australia wine. Notice one of the things it advertises to show it is a fine wine is how long it sat on lees.


The grapes were mainly handpicked at 12° Baume to maintain the fruit colour and flavour, and some of the fruit was whole-bunch pressed to increase the elegance of the wine. After crushing and draining, the juice was transferred to stainless steel tanks to begin fermentation. 85% of the wine remained in stainless steel for fermentation, and 15% was transferred to new French oak barrels, where it was matured on yeast lees for six months. Regular stirring (batonage) ensured maximum extraction of flavours and a rich, creamy texture, with softness and complexity.
http://www.grantburgewines.com.au/thewines/?wine=4

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The longer a red sits on lees the darker it is and the more full bodied it is. Thank you for finding this. I think the wine in Heaven will be red wine.

Proverbs 23:31a 'Look not upon the wine when it is red...'

Houston, we have a problem. From the Bible passage above, red wine is not even to be considered. That is what the word 'Look' means (among other meanings that show we are not to be desirous of fermented beverage).

Jesus said, 'For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.' Matthew 6:21

 

[DeeJay]

SFiC

The last time I checked my bottle of Welches grape juice did not develop lees in the bottom. The drink sitting on lees in Isaiah 25:6 has to be fermented.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

As was stated earlier, the 'well refined' means purified.

Fermentation is not pure. It is not alcoholic wine in that verse.

Try again.

 

[DeeJay]

No well refined means filtered or strained this is done to clearify wine.

ONLY FERMENTED WINE HAS LEES.

Who says fermentation is not pure. It is fermentation that removes the leaven. Leaven is considered not pure.

Try again

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Fermentation is a result of decay. Decay is not pure.

 

[DeeJay]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Fermentation is a result of decay. Decay is not pure.

Fermentation is a little more complicated then that. Read some of the posts on this thread. Do some research on fermentation then you can post an educated opinion about this subject.

By the way do you eat cheese, yogurt, bread.

 

[DeeJay]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Fermentation is a result of decay. Decay is not pure.

By the way, we have already established that alcohol is a disinfectent that kills leaven. The Bible is clear that leaven is not pure. Who says that the disinfectent that kills leaven is not pure?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by DeeJay:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Fermentation is a result of decay. Decay is not pure.

Fermentation is a little more complicated then that. Read some of the posts on this thread. Do some research on fermentation then you can post an educated opinion about this subject.

By the way do you eat cheese, yogurt, bread. </font>[/QUOTE]It isn't a little more complicated. SFIC's statement is totally incorrect. There is nothing about fermentation that is the result of decay.

Fermentation is life. It is how microorganisms breathe. We take sugars, respire and produce C02. Microorganisms take sugars, ferment and produce ethanol, vinegar and lactic acid.

The by-product of these processes: C02, ethanol, vinegar, lactic acid are products that the organism cannot build up too much of. That is because if there is too much build up of that substance, respiration and fermentation cannot continue in the organism and at high enough concentrations, it creates an environment toxic to the organism.

Foods that are products of fermentation include the list above as well as:

anything pickled (kimchi, sauerkraut, olives)
Miso
Soy Sauce

Fermentation is also a common step in coffee, tea and chocolate processing.

 

[Smoky]

I dont think they knew about the "chemical compsition" or exactly how it worked. But they for sure knew that grape juice containd leaven. How, leaven makes things ferment.

I don’t think they knew that the albumin from grape hulls was leaven. They knew it caused juice to ferment, but it wasn’t identical to the kind of leaven used to make bread rise. When they thought of leaven, they thought of something added to bread dough as is mentioned throughout the Bible. If they thought of it as being anything else, where can it be found in scripture?

Leaven can not be strained or filtered. Wine is often filtered and strained during the fermentation process for clarity and it does not affect the yeast in any way. Wine is strained and filtered 4 to 6 times during the process depending on the type of wine and how much sedement at the bottom of the bottle bothers you.

Lees refers to the sediment that you get when wine ferments. You get alot of sediment and you siphon it thru a filter to a different carboy leaving behind the lees (sediment) the more times you syphon and leave the sediment the clearer it becomes. The clearer the finer the wine.

You may be right but I’ve read where ancient writers such as Pliny and Plutarch mentioned ways that filtering could be done that have been tested and proven effective in modern times. Anyway, they knew how to prevent fermentation by boiling. The idea in Is. 25:6 was that from grapes can be made all kinds of produce in addition to the juice. There is nothing in the passage about anything being “well aged”. The word “shemer” means “preserves” and can refer to vintage produce instead of “lees”. It doesn’t have to be translated “lees” as the translators did in the KJV. It can possibly refer to “lees” but you can take your choice.

Grape juice never has lees, it is the process of fermentation that causes lees (sediment). The fact that this verse referres to lees or sediment is PROOF POSITIVE that it is fermented.

Yes, but grape juice has left over produce that can be made into other things. I don’t see any “proof positive” of anything. It seems like something where beliefs need to be determined by our own personal choice and inner guidance.

 

[gekko]

im going to ask a true jew - someone who is actually jewish - about this matter.

hopefully have some sort of an answer to this by the end of the week.

 

[tamborine lady]

As far as I know, most churches use grape juice for communion, so it doesn't really matter to me.

We're not going to become a bunch of winebibbers anyway are we?
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Cheers,

Tam