Did Jesus Have Faith?

[Marcia]

Yes Unconscious Dead

Adam was created a living soul not an immortal soul. Gen 2:7
In dying thou dost die. Young's Lit. translation Gen 2:17 My translation of Young (When you die you will be dead)
Now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen. 3:22 So he can't become an immortal sinner. God guarded the way to the tree of life.

The Word became flesh, took on the nature of man FOR the purpose of death.
I can give ch and verse if necessary

Since you are saying that Jesus was unconscious for 3 days (correct me if I'm wrong), are you saying that when we die, we are unconscious until our bodies are resurrected?

This is called soul sleep. Do you subscribe to that view?

 

[Tom Butler]

Okay, perchco, may you'd better give us chapter and verse to support your view that not only did Jesus die in the flesh, but his essence actually died, too.

I think the reason Marcia and I keep asking for clarification is, for me at least, I am incredulous. That view is so outside Baptist thought and mainstream Christian belief that I have having trouble believing that you actually believe this. I keep thinking I have misunderstood you.

So let's have those scriptures, please.

 

[ingegneriae]

Hi folks, sorry to resurrect an old thread, but a friend and I have been debating the topic of did Jesus have faith, and I'd like to discuss the matter with you folks.

I have found three verses that would suggest that Jesus did have faith. I would like your input on them, if possible.

Hebrews 12:2
2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The definition of the greek words for author (archegos) and perfecter (teleiotes) from Strong's concordance:
Archegos:
1. the chief leader, prince
1. of Christ
2. one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer
3. the author
Teleiotes:
1. a perfector
2. one who has in his own person raised faith to its perfection and so set before us the highest example of faith

Habakkuk 2:4
4 "See, he is puffed up;
his desires are not upright—
but the righteous will live by his faith

Isaiah 11:5 (I'm including verses 1-4 to show that it references Jesus.)
1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him—
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power,
the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD -

3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.
He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
or decide by what he hears with his ears;

4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

 

[Tom Butler]

5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

So, which side do you come down on in this discussion?

Faithfulness here does not mean the quality of being full of faith. It means reliability, dependability, loyalty.

 

[ingegneriae]

Well, from the research that I've done on this subject, it seems that there are two sides. One side focuses on Jesus' divinity while the other focuses on Jesus' humanity. I think I am one who focuses on Jesus' humanity.

I found it quite shocking when my friend said that Jesus did not have faith. From my perspective, the bible and Jesus himself speaks of us needing faith so often and so much in the bible, that it would seem very strange that he did not have faith, also.

In response to your message, the word for faith in
Habakkuk 2:4
4 "See, he is puffed up;
his desires are not upright—
but the righteous will live by his faith

is the same hebrew word used in Isaiah 11:5 to describe faithfulness.
5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

(Edit: Habakkuk 2:4 is referenced in Galatians 3:11 and Romans 1:17 and the word faith (emuwnah) is translated as faith (pistis))

This is according to strong's concordance. Both faith and faithfulness come from the hebrew word emuwnah, meaning: firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness.

I've found that there are at least these many words used to render faith in the old testament: emuwnah, emeth, emuwn (5 uses), omen (used only once) and aman.

I'll show some more verses to hopefully demonstrate what it means to be faithful?

Numbers 12:7
7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.

Faithful here is aman.

Deuteronomy 32:4
4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he.

Faithful here is from the hebrew word emuwnah.

Psalms 33:4
4 For the word of the LORD is right and true;
he is faithful in all he does.

Faithful here is emuwnah.

Psalms 36:5
5 Your love, O LORD, reaches to the heavens,
your faithfulness to the skies.

Faithfulness here is emuwnah.

Psalms 89:2
2 I will declare that your love stands firm forever,
that you established your faithfulness in heaven itself.

Faithfulness here is emuwnah.

Psalms 89:5
5 The heavens praise your wonders, O LORD,
your faithfulness too, in the assembly of the holy ones.

Faithfulness here is emuwnah.

Psalms 89:8
8 O LORD God Almighty, who is like you?
You are mighty, O LORD, and your faithfulness surrounds you.

Faithfulness here is emuwnah.

Isaiah 16:5
5 In love a throne will be established;
in faithfulness a man will sit on it—
one from the house [a] of David—
one who in judging seeks justice
and speeds the cause of righteousness.

Faithfulness here is emeth.

Isaiah 42:3
3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

Faithfulness here is emeth.

Isaiah 49:7
7 This is what the LORD says—
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel—
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation,
to the servant of rulers:
"Kings will see you and rise up,
princes will see and bow down,
because of the LORD, who is faithful,
the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."

Faithful here is aman.

I've tried to choose verses that show the quality of God. Hopefully this will show us what it means to faithful?

I know that faith (greek: pistis) as explained in the new testament is:
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
2This is what the ancients were commended for.

But the greek word pistis isn't found in the old testament. So, I guess I'm trying to show that faith has many aspects. One aspect is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

For now, the only evidence I have found in the greek to support my perspective is:

Revelation 2:10
10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Faithful here is pistos.

Revelation 2:13
13I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives.

Faithful here is pistos.

Revelation 3:14
14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Faithful here is pistos.

Revelation 17:14
14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

Faithful here is pistos.

Revelation 19:11.
11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.

Faithful here is pistos.

I've tried to illustrate from the Revelation verses that Jesus is "faithful" (pistos) at least as much as he asks us to be "faithful" (pistos).

 

[Tom Butler]

One side focuses on Jesus' divinity while the other focuses on Jesus' humanity. I think I am one who focuses on Jesus' humanity.

Well, that's a problem, because it was the man Jesus who raised the dead; the man Jesus who calmed the winds; the man Jesus who disappeared before the eyes of a hostile crowd.

Now, what, or who was the object of his faith, if he indeed had faith?

Did he have faith in his power to speak to the stormy seas and have them calm down? Did he have faith in himself? Faith in the Father or the Holy Spirit? And wouldn't a yes answer suggest that Jesus is less than God?

 

[ingegneriae]

This is rather difficult, but I'll try to answer some of your questions.

Let me first point out some new things that I've learned. It would seem that the word faithfulness (pistos) suggests someone who can be relied upon. So, when it says that God and Jesus are faithful, it means we can depend upon them. That's what I get from the definitions, anyway. I'll list them below so you can think about it yourself.

Faithfulness (pistos):
Definition
1. trusty, faithful
1. of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties
2. one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust
3. that can be relied on
2. easily persuaded
1. believing, confiding, trusting
2. in the NT one who trusts in God's promises
1. one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead
2. one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

Let me start with Hebrews 3:
Hebrews 3:1-2
1Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. 2He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house.

I at first didn't think that faithfulness (pistos) needed an object, but it seems Hebrews 3:2 would suggest that Jesus was faithful to someone.

Second is Hebrews 3:6
6But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

I'm not sure exactly what this conveys, but it does suggest that Christ is faithful as a son over God's house.

To answer your question of whether it would make Jesus any less than God, I don't view it that way. I view him as God even with his faithfulness.

Perhaps you can explain to me why his having faith would mean that he would be less than God? That way, I might be able to find some scriptures to help allay your fears.

And also, don't forget Hebrews 12:2. Look up the greek definitions for author and perfector of our faith. I believe this verse, above many others, points to the fact that Jesus is the prime example of faith (pistis).

Again, if you can explain to me your concerns in detail, I might be able to find scriptures to help.

 

[OldRegular]

In another thread, Winman posted this:

Do you not see here what believing or trust is? Jesus did not fight death. He gave up and died and trusted his soul into the hands of his Father. He let himself die, and trusted and depended that the Father would raise him from the dead as he promised.

This is the perfect example of faith. It is giving up, it is letting go, it is surrendering yourself into the care of another. It is not a work, it is a ceasing of work.

But Jesus still did something, he allowed himself to die. But that action was a result of his faith. If he did not believe his Father would raise him from the dead, he would have fought to the last breath to live, or come down by his own power.

So the question before the board is, did Jesus have faith? Or, did he need faith. Did Jesus have to trust the Father to raise him from the dead? Does the Creator of the Universe, who has all power, have to have faith?

Release the hounds.

I have not posted on this thread for some time. I indicated the following in my initial response:

Initial response by Oldregular
Sadly this sounds like Word of Faith heresy to me. You know: God had to have faith to create the Universe. Very Sad!

Not only does Winman’s post border on the Word of Faith heresy it is really nonsensical given that Jesus Christ said the following:

John 2:18-23
18. Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21. But he spake of the temple of his body.
22. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


Although most Scripture indicates that Jesus Christ was raised by GOD the above passage indicates that He Himself would resurrect the body that died on the cross. Was He speaking in His divine nature only or as the God-man, I don’t know but it is obvious that Jesus Christ did not need to exercise faith regarding his death on the cross and his subsequent resurrection. in another place Jesus Christ said:

John 10:17, 18
17. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

 

[Tom Butler]

Perhaps you can explain to me why his having faith would mean that he would be less than God? That way, I might be able to find some scriptures to help allay your fears.
.

I'm sorta intrigued here. In none of your citations of faithfulness in the scriptures did the context suggest "full of faith." And so far you've cited no scriptures that can be interpreted as such. So I'll take you up on your offer to find some.

Seems to me, faith must have an object. Someone or some thing. John 1 says Jesus was the Creator of the universe. What faith was required for that, and in whom or what was it placed? What role did faith play when Jesus brought Lazarus back from the dead, and in whom was that faith placed?

Why would I need faith if I possess all power? As a human, Jesus still exercised power over the elements; over death; over sickness; and over our soul's salvation. No need for faith, unless you want to argue that Jesus had faith in himself. Which still begs the question, when you have all power, and know it, why do you need faith?

Faith is something one places in a person or thing with power he does not have. That's why I say that if Jesus had to have faith, he had less power than the object of his faith, thus was less than God.

 

[Amy.G]

I'm sorta intrigued here. In none of your citations of faithfulness in the scriptures did the context suggest "full of faith." And so far you've cited no scriptures that can be interpreted as such. So I'll take you up on your offer to find some.

Seems to me, faith must have an object. Someone or some thing. John 1 says Jesus was the Creator of the universe. What faith was required for that, and in whom or what was it placed? What role did faith play when Jesus brought Lazarus back from the dead, and in whom was that faith placed?

Why would I need faith if I possess all power? As a human, Jesus still exercised power over the elements; over death; over sickness; and over our soul's salvation. No need for faith, unless you want to argue that Jesus had faith in himself. Which still begs the question, when you have all power, and know it, why do you need faith?

Faith is something one places in a person or thing with power he does not have. That's why I say that if Jesus had to have faith, he had less power than the object of his faith, thus was less than God.

I don't know how to answer the OP question, but your post made me think of something.

Why would Jesus, who is God, cry out to God "why hast thou forsaken Me?". Can God forsake Himself?

Jesus was also fully human, so maybe the faith that He showed in God the Father, was from His humanity, just as crying out to God while on the cross was from His humanity.

Since we are to strive to be like Christ, why wouldn't we strive to have the same faith that He had as a human in God the Father?


Just a thought.

 

[Tom Butler]

I don't know how to answer the OP question, but your post made me think of something.

Why would Jesus, who is God, cry out to God "why hast thou forsaken Me?". Can God forsake Himself?

Jesus was also fully human, so maybe the faith that He showed in God the Father, was from His humanity, just as crying out to God while on the cross was from His humanity.

Since we are to strive to be like Christ, why wouldn't we strive to have the same faith that He had as a human in God the Father?


Just a thought.

Reasonable question, Amy. My own take is that this forsaking was part of the atonement process, where Jesus had to take our punishment alone, without help, without comfort from the Father. There is one view, and I'm not sure about it, that when Jesus became sin for us on the cross, God turned his back since he could not look on sin. I'm not sure I buy that, since God saw the people's sinfulness all the time.

But, the Psalmist prophetically wrote "thou wilt not leave my soul in the place of the dead." I take that to mean that the forsaking was temporary.

Further than that, the entire process was planned from eternity by the Godhead. I think Peter called it in Acts, the "determinate counsel." I doubt if the Son, on the cross, was saying to himself, "boy I sure hope the Father carries out his part of this plan." No, it was determined. It would happen. No way it was not going to happen. Because the Godhead had all power to make it happen.

No faith necessary, here.

 

[percho]

Tom

How was God able to pay the penalty for our sins if he could not die.

Act 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Let me ask you another question. Other than God, is there any life outside of the resurrection from the dead? What does this mean?

1Cr 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Just how important is the resurrection to life?

 

[ingegneriae]

First, let me state that I might be wrong on my perspective that Jesus had faith. The reason is that I originally hoped that there were many verses in the bible to support my perspective. But so far, I've only found a few. But since they're scripture, even if they're a few, I will give them weight in my consideration.

I would like to state that from my studies, I've found that there are three major greek words used to describe what we understand as faith OR belief. The greek word Pistis is usually translated as faith, and conveys the meaning that we understand as faith in english. The greek word pistos is translated as faithfulness and conveys the meaning that we find in the english words trustworthy, dependable, etc. I'm unsure of the greek word pisteuo, since I have not studied that word much yet. But from what I understand, the greek word is used frequently in the gospel of John, in place of the word pistis. It is special that the gospel of John doesn't use the word pistis (faith), but pisteuo, instead.

So, here is a list of the strongest evidence I have so far to support my theory. I can't answer your questions about what it means to have faith apart from my understanding of how it is defined in scripture. I believe we should define faith through the use of the greek new testament or the hebrew old testament, not through the english form of faith. Nevertheless, after this post, I'll try to answer what questions I can through the use of scripture.

The latest verse I've found is very interesting. It uses the greek word pistis in, from what I understand, its passive form. The passive form is rendered as faithfulness, but the greek word is indeed pistis. This is important because pistis conveys the meaning of what we understand as faith in english.

The verse is Romans 3:3
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness?

You can check in strong's concordance for the greek word used to render faithfulness. In this case, it is indeed pistis.

The implication of this verse is that God, himself, has faith. I don't know what to make of this beyond what it says in the greek.

I still hold to Hebrews 12:2 as a good verse describing Jesus as the author and perfecter of our faith. I believe it is a significant verse.

(Edit: I forgot about an additional verse:
Hebrews 3:1-2
1Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. 2He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house.

Faithful here is pistos.)

An additional verse that I believe could be helpful is Habakkuk 2:4, that I've mentioned previously, stating that the righteous will live by faith (emuwnah). But when the new testament references Habakkuk 2:4, the new testament writers render the word emuwnah as pistis in the new testament.

 

[ingegneriae]

I get your concerns, and I'm unsure of how to answer them. But maybe these verses can help to explain my perspective on your concerns:

Philipppians 2:5-11
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

I don't like using arguments outside of scripture on so important a matter, so I will point to what these scriptures say.

I'm trying to look at these verses using strong's concordance. I'm sure there are some heavy theological points being made in this passage of scripture.

You've asked how it can be that Jesus, being God, could need faith. (I know these verses don't discuss him having faith, but they do discuss him having qualities that are very interesting.) But consider what these verses are saying. In regards to his power and his miracles, I don't know. I'm just trying to focus on one point, the point of him having faith. I'm not questioning where his power comes from or how he did his miracles. My perspective is

Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

and

Hebrews 12:2
2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I believe that Jesus is both the source and the destination of who we are as Christians.

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

So, if we need faith as part of our christianity, what is the source of that faith? What is the source of christianity? Is faith part of Christianity? I'm not saying you have to answer these questions, I'm just trying to show you my perspective.

You have good questions, but I suggest we look at the question of what is faith through the greek new testament and the hebrew old testament.

And in regards to the object or subject of faith, the object of our faith is obviously Christ and God:

John 14:1
1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.

As to the object or subject of Jesus' faith as defined by pistis? I will be honest and say I have not found verses yet that mention Jesus' pistis. I have only found one verse mentioning Jesus' pistos towards God. But I have found that verse that mentions God's pistis. I don't know if that verse has an object or subject.

(Edit: I've found another verse that suggests we receive our faith through Christ.
Acts 3:16
16By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see. (NIV)

To clarify, I'll include the ESV:
Acts 3:16
16And his name—by faith in his name—has made this man strong whom you see and know, and the faith that is through Jesus has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all. (ESV)

This suggests that our faith comes through Jesus.)

 

[ingegneriae]

This is going to be a relatively short post. I have found one additional verse I'd like to add. And I've found two verses that I'd like to add for my own records.

The new verse is 2 Timothy 1:13. I will show it in four different versions, since the NIV version doesn't get the message across as well. If you want to check the different versions, yourself, feel free to do so.

2 Timothy 1:13
13What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. (NIV)

2 Timothy 1:13
13Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. (ESV)

2 Timothy 1:13
13 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. (NKJV)

2 Timothy 1:13
13Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. (NASB)

The word faith for this verse is pistis.

The following are for my own records.

Hebrews 10:23
23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

Faithful here is pistos.

Hebrews 11:11
11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise.

Faithful here is pistos.

 

[Marcia]

Many of the words that you have as "faith" can also be translated - and are translated that way in other versions - as "faithfulness." Christ was faithful. He did not need faith. He was always God; he added humanity to his nature.

None of what you posted is evidence to me that Jesus himself had faith.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom

How was God able to pay the penalty for our sins if he could not die.

He did pay the sin penalty because God the Son did die. His human body died.

Act 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Let me ask you another question. Other than God, is there any life outside of the resurrection from the dead? What does this mean?

1Cr 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

I'm not sure of the point of your question, but the point of the scripture passage is Christ's resurrection. If Christ did not rise from the dead, we have no hope of life after death. Faith in a still-dead Christ is in vain and our faith does not bring salvation or forgiveness from sin. And those who have died before us are headed for hell if Christ is not raised.

Just how important is the resurrection to life?

If there is no resurrection for us, there was none for Jesus, Paul says. And without the resurrection, we'll have no life after death.