Did Jesus teach Tulip ?

[Dr. Walter]

That's right. I don't see any Calvinism in John 3:16

John 3:16 is a great text but it should not be isolated from its context. Jesus taught new birth (Jn. 3:1-11) before preaching the gospel (Jn. 3:15-16). I don't think those who oppose the doctrine of grace would approach Nicodemus that way. I think those who select John 3:16 and isolate from its context would most likely teach John 3:15-17 first and then John 3:1-11. Your soteriology would reverse what Jesus did in John 3:1-17 BECAUSE that is how most who embrace your soteriology approach a lost person in real life.

John 3:16 does not say "whosoever won't" but John 3:18-19 teaches total inability of the natural man and whatever response to light occurs is wrought in them by God.

 

[DHK]

John 3:16 is a great text but it should not be isolated from its context. Jesus taught new birth (Jn. 3:1-11) before preaching the gospel (Jn. 3:15-16). I don't think those who oppose the doctrine of grace would approach Nicodemus that way. I think those who select John 3:16 and isolate from its context would most likely teach John 3:15-17 first and then John 3:1-11. Your soteriology would reverse what Jesus did in John 3:1-17 BECAUSE that is how most who embrace your soteriology approach a lost person in real life.

John 3:16 does not say "whosoever won't" but John 3:18-19 teaches total inability of the natural man and whatever response to light occurs is wrought in them by God.

John 3:16 teaches the opposite of total inability by virtue of "Whosoever believes." All of the "whosoever" verses deny total inability.

Acts 17:30 especially denies it. The latter part where it says, he commands all men everywhere to repent.
All men everywhere includes all people. All people must have the ability to repent, the ability to call out on their own to God or turn to God. This is a total blow to "total inability."

 

[Rippon]

John 3:16 teaches the opposite of total inability by virtue of "Whosoever believes." All of the "whosoever" verses deny total inability.

It's not "whosoever believes" but the believing ones. The KJV rendering of "whosoever" in this and other verses obscures biblical truths by making things seem random.

Acts 17:30 especially denies it. The latter part where it says, he commands all men everywhere to repent.
All men everywhere includes all people. All people must have the ability to repent, the ability to call out on their own to God or turn to God. This is a total blow to "total inability."

Your premise is flawed. Just because the Lord can command that which each and every person should do --does not mean or imply that each and every person is able to comply. You are confusing things. Their is a clear distinction between the general call and effectual call.

 

[David Lamb]

I read all these arguments and discussion about Calvinism, and I can't help but think that when all the dust settles, John 3:16 prevails. Think I will hang my hat on that verse and let all the theologians argue otherwise.

But Calvinists also believe that whoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will not perish, but have everlasting life, as John 3.16 says.

 

[Dr. Walter]

John 3:16 teaches the opposite of total inability by virtue of "Whosoever believes." All of the "whosoever" verses deny total inability.

The doctrine of total inability does not teach that man has lost the power of choice. Rather he is incapable of desire because of enmity toward God and he has lost the ability to perceive the truth. Jesus went on to describe that inability in these words:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Note what they love versus what they hate. Also note that their refusal to come (power of choice) to the light is a direct result of their hatred (hateth the light, neither cometh). This is a heart problem. The heart must be changed from love of sin to love of God and from hated of the light to love for light. This is why Jesus began this conversation with Nicodemus in regard to this change that only God can do - "ye must be born again."

The words "whosoever will" does not deny this problem but it does make it manifest. Nothing prevents the worst of sinners from coming to the light but their own hatred of light. Those who are willing, do love the light, do come to God because they are those in whom God has performed this work of new birth - change of heart -

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Please note the contrast in doing between verses 19-20 (because their deeds are evil....doeth evil) and verse 21 (doeth truth....his deeds). What you do manifests the state of your heart (loveth...hatheth) and determines your willingness (neither cometh). Does a bad tree produce good fruits? No! The fruits always match the tree. In order for the bad tree in verses 19-20 to produce good fruit as in verse 21 the nature of the tree (heart) must be changed. That change is "wrought in [by] God."

Acts 17:30 especially denies it. The latter part where it says, he commands all men everywhere to repent.
All men everywhere includes all people. All people must have the ability to repent, the ability to call out on their own to God or turn to God. This is a total blow to "total inability."

You confuse responsibility with ability. If God were responsible for man's inability you would have a point. However, God is not responsible for their inability. Jesus said they were "condemned already." God is not responsible because they hate the light. Their hated of the light does not lessen their responsibility to repent. There is no external coersion that prevents them from coming to Christ to be saved except their own hatred of light and love for sin. God rightly commands them to repent. However, they will not repent unless God grants repentance, not according to justice but according to grace:

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

However, no amount of arguing is going to convince you. No one could convince me when I held your position.

 

[savedbymercy]

It's not "whosoever believes" but the believing ones. The KJV rendering of "whosoever" in this and other verses obscures biblical truths by making things seem random.




Your premise is flawed. Just because the Lord can command that which each and every person should do --does not mean or imply that each and every person is able to comply. You are confusing things. Their is a clear distinction between the general call and effectual call.

Actually Acts 17:30 is to the regenerated,it is not a command to all men without exception,but all without distinction. Gospel obedience and repentance is premised on remission of sins Lk 24:47

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

So the command to repent here in Acts 17:30 are those who have as a free gift of God's Grace, and Christ Blood, remission of sins !

This repentance has been given to them already by Christ Acts 5:31

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

This command in Acts 17:30 will make those who have been given repentance by Christ, it will make it evident that He has !

 

[Dr. Walter]

Actually Acts 17:30 is to the regenerated,it is not a command to all men without exception,but all without distinction. Gospel obedience and repentance is premised on remission of sins Lk 24:47

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

So the command to repent here in Acts 17:30 are those who have as a free gift of God's Grace, and Christ Blood, remission of sins !

This repentance has been given to them already by Christ Acts 5:31

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

This command in Acts 17:30 will make those who have been given repentance by Christ, it will make it evident that He has !

You are an example of a person who cannot see the forrest because you have your nose two inches from one tree in the forest.

God can command EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING to repent BECAUSE every single human being is a sinner and are responsible for their sin and therefore are responsible to repent for their sins. Do you know the difference between responsibility and ability??? Man does not have to be able to repent of their sins in order to be responsible to repent for their sins. Why? Because they are at fault for their own inability not God. Their inability is grounded in their hatred.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

God can command EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING to repent BECAUSE every single human being is a sinner and are responsible for their sin

Thats a lie, Jesus Christ was responsible for the sins of the Elect ! God charged their sins upon Him,[1 Cor 15:3] He was their Surety ! And Repentance, when Preach right, it is to be preached in His Name ! Lk 24:47

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

God commands no one to repent save those who have remission of sins already through the Person and Work of Jesus Christ !

 

[DHK]

dw

Thats a lie, Jesus Christ was responsible for the sins of the Elect ! God charged their sins upon Him,[1 Cor 15:3] He was their Surety ! And Repentance, when Preach right, it is to be preached in His Name ! Lk 24:47

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

God commands no one to repent save those who have remission of sins already through the Person and Work of Jesus Christ !

No lies here, and call no one a liar whether by insinuation or directly!

The verse says that he commanded all men every where to repent!

That is not difficult to understand. Where was Paul?
He was on Mars Hill.
Who was he speaking to?
He was speaking to the heathen--unsaved idolatrous Greeks, that had no clue as to what the Bible said about anything.
--And yet God commanded them to repent; as he commands all men everywhere to repent.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Thats a lie, Jesus Christ was responsible for the sins of the Elect ! God charged their sins upon Him,[1 Cor 15:3] He was their Surety ! And Repentance, when Preach right, it is to be preached in His Name ! Lk 24:47

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

God commands no one to repent save those who have remission of sins already through the Person and Work of Jesus Christ !

What in the world do you think "in his name" means? It means as he authorized and instructed (Acts 4:7)


Didn't he command his church to preach repentance TO ALL NATIONS????

May I ask who do you think you are that you can determine who in your audiance is the elect and who is not? Paul is preaching on Mars hill and he did not say, "oh, now only you elect are to repent and this does not apply to you, you and you. He told the whole crowd to repent. Perhaps you can give us some insight on how we can know the elect from the non-elect so we can ask them to leave or so we can tell them this does not apply to you?

 

[steaver]

You are confusing responsibility with ability. If the loss of ability was God's fault then God would be unjust to condemn them. However, the loss of ability is not God's fault but the fault of mankind as they participated in Adam, and thus with Adam in disobedience.

This point is crucial as to whether or not TULIP stands or colapses.

Is God responsible for the Curse or is Adam?

You will derive the answer to that question when you answer this question;

Was the Curse thought of and implemented by the power of God or by the power of Adam?

Please, just answer the question. No dodges. And you will see the TULIP wither away.

 

[savedbymercy]

What in the world do you think "in his name" means? It means as he authorized and instructed (Acts 4:7)


Didn't he command his church to preach repentance TO ALL NATIONS????

May I ask who do you think you are that you can determine who in your audiance is the elect and who is not? Paul is preaching on Mars hill and he did not say, "oh, now only you elect are to repent and this does not apply to you, you and you. He told the whole crowd to repent. Perhaps you can give us some insight on how we can know the elect from the non-elect so we can ask them to leave or so we can tell them this does not apply to you?

When Paul Preached, He preached as an Minister of the New Covenant 2 Cor 3:6

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The command to Repent in Acts 17 was given by God to those who had been given Life, Spiritual Life from their Covenant Head. The Blessings of the New Covenant gave them a New Spirit and New Heart in order to obey Covenant instruction as it was promised Ezk 36:26-27

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Repentance is one of those statues. The word statue is the hebrew word choq and it means commandment Amos 2:4



4Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked:

It also means statue, ordinance or law and etc

The command to repent in Acts 17 is from God and will be obeyed by each Person that God gives it to.

Each Person it is wrought in has had their sins forgiven by the blood of Christ and have been granted Repentance in Christ Name Acts 5:31

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

These gentiles in Acts 17 had been granted repentance unto Life, New Covenant Life from the Covenant Blood.

If you do not know these things, you have no business calling yourself a Gospel Preacher..

Didn't he command his church to preach repentance TO ALL NATIONS????

Of course He did. Thats because Abraham had a seed in All nations to bring to Faith Gen 17:5

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

May I ask who do you think you are that you can determine who in your audiance is the elect and who is not?

You are so unlearned ! God knows who and where His elect are and sends His Preachers to them with the good news. The Apostles were always under Divine Direction as to where God sent them to deliver the message.

Why do you think Paul says that Preachers are sent ? Rom 10:14-15

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Do ya think God knows where to send them and why ?

 

[Dr. Walter]

When Paul Preached, He preached as an Minister of the New Covenant 2 Cor 3:6

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The command to Repent in Acts 17 was given by God to those who had been given Life, Spiritual Life from their Covenant Head. The Blessings of the New Covenant gave them a New Spirit and New Heart in order to obey Covenant instruction as it was promised Ezk 36:26-27

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Repentance is one of those statues. The word statue is the hebrew word choq and it means commandment Amos 2:4



4Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked:

It also means statue, ordinance or law and etc

The command to repent in Acts 17 is from God and will be obeyed by each Person that God gives it to.

Each Person it is wrought in has had their sins forgiven by the blood of Christ and have been granted Repentance in Christ Name Acts 5:31

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

These gentiles in Acts 17 had been granted repentance unto Life, New Covenant Life from the Covenant Blood.

If you do not know these things, you have no business calling yourself a Gospel Preacher..



Of course He did. Thats because Abraham had a seed in All nations to bring to Faith Gen 17:5

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.



You are so unlearned ! God knows who and where His elect are and sends His Preachers to them with the good news. The Apostles were always under Divine Direction as to where God sent them to deliver the message.

Why do you think Paul says that Preachers are sent ? Rom 10:14-15

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Do ya think God knows where to send them and why ?

Your position is not only illogical but is built upon undue inferences rather than clear scripture! Sure God knows where to send his preachers but he does not tell his preachers, that person is an elect but this is not so don't preach to that person but preach to this person. No! we preach the gospel to ALL and we call upon ALL repent and ALL to believe and the elect in God's timing will repent and will believe.

Your position that God does not command ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent is absurdly rediculous. Paul was preaching on mars hill and MOST of his audience did not repent and yet he preached repentance to them anyway. THE CONTEXT destroys your inferred theological position. Of course you have no concern about context, grammar, rules of hermeneutics or common sense anyway as you simply peice together scriptures to teach anything your little heart desires.

 

[Dr. Walter]

This point is crucial as to whether or not TULIP stands or colapses.

Is God responsible for the Curse or is Adam?

You will derive the answer to that question when you answer this question;

Was the Curse thought of and implemented by the power of God or by the power of Adam?

Please, just answer the question. No dodges. And you will see the TULIP wither away.

I wonder if you understand the question you are really asking? You are asking me Who determines JUST CONSEQUENCES to sin? That is all the curse really is - the just consequences to sin. Well, who is The Judge of all the earth? Is it Adam or God? It is the Judge that determines the consequences of violating His law not the lawbreaker!

How this destroys TULIP is beyond me?? If God had not forewarned Adam of the consequences (curse) then you might have a point and say Adam could not be charged with sin but God explicitly told him not to violate his law and warned him of the consequences in advance.

I don't follow your logic behind this question at all?

 

[Dr. Walter]

When Paul Preached, He preached as an Minister of the New Covenant 2 Cor 3:6

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The command to Repent in Acts 17 was given by God to those who had been given Life, Spiritual Life from their Covenant Head. The Blessings of the New Covenant gave them a New Spirit and New Heart in order to obey Covenant instruction as it was promised Ezk 36:26-27

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Repentance is one of those statues. The word statue is the hebrew word choq and it means commandment Amos 2:4



4Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked:

It also means statue, ordinance or law and etc

The command to repent in Acts 17 is from God and will be obeyed by each Person that God gives it to.

Each Person it is wrought in has had their sins forgiven by the blood of Christ and have been granted Repentance in Christ Name Acts 5:31

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

These gentiles in Acts 17 had been granted repentance unto Life, New Covenant Life from the Covenant Blood.

If you do not know these things, you have no business calling yourself a Gospel Preacher..



Of course He did. Thats because Abraham had a seed in All nations to bring to Faith Gen 17:5

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.



You are so unlearned ! God knows who and where His elect are and sends His Preachers to them with the good news. The Apostles were always under Divine Direction as to where God sent them to deliver the message.

Why do you think Paul says that Preachers are sent ? Rom 10:14-15

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Do ya think God knows where to send them and why ?

So according to your logic, just because you can prove in scriptures that God is going to save the elect, you think, also proves that human preachers should not preach to anyone but the elect or call upon anyone but the elect to repent and believe the gospel? Do the elect wear name tags so the preacher can say, "I am not calling on you Mr. or Mrs. so and so, but I am calling on Mr. and Mrs. so and so to repent and believe??????????

Apparently Jesus does not share your view because He told some that unless they repent they would perish! Can the elect perish?

1 ¶ There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


Now, did Jesus really mean what he said to "ALL" those he was addressing this? Were they "ALL" elect and if so, could they "ALL" perish if they did not repent or was Jesus lying to them???????

Did Jesus tell the pharisees in John 5:40-44 God is not telling you to come to me or did he say - "you WILL NOT come unto me that you might have eternal life"

 

[savedbymercy]

The command to repent in Acts 17:30 is a New Covenant Command and is a one of the Blessings of Abraham's Seed. When God told Abraham that in his seed shall all Nations be blessed. That seed of Abraham was Christ, and Christ bestows Repentance upon Abraham's Seed. Gen 22:18

And in thy seed[Christ] shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

The blessings are Spiritual Blessings, one of which is Repentance. This Gift of Repentance turns men and women from their iniquities as Peter declared here Acts 3:25-26

25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Thats Repentance to turn from our iniquities, this is a Blessing from Christ, to turn those He died for from their sins, to give them a Change of Mind !

So the command to Repent in Acts 17:30 is not just a bare command, but its an application of the Gift of Repentance unto Life ! Acts 11:18

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Thats so True, unless Christ grant one repentance unto life, they are sure to perish in their sins..

What these foolish people did not know, was that Christ was their only Hope of not perishing in their sins, their only hope was if they belonged to His Sheep that He was about to shed the blood of the Covenant for..

 

[steaver]

I wonder if you understand the question you are really asking? You are asking me Who determines JUST CONSEQUENCES to sin? That is all the curse really is - the just consequences to sin. Well, who is The Judge of all the earth? Is it Adam or God? It is the Judge that determines the consequences of violating His law not the lawbreaker!

How this destroys TULIP is beyond me?? If God had not forewarned Adam of the consequences (curse) then you might have a point and say Adam could not be charged with sin but God explicitly told him not to violate his law and warned him of the consequences in advance.

I don't follow your logic behind this question at all?

God forewarned Adam concerning death. He told Adam that he would "surely die". The scripture does not say that God said anything about a whole earth being cursed consequence nor that his offspring would be cursed as well. I even doubt that Adam understood what "die" meant seeing that he had never experienced anything dying.

Can you explain to me why Adam is responsible when God predestined Adam to sin against Him?

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture Citations From the 2011 NIV

Can you explain to me why Adam is responsible when God predestined Adam to sin against Him?

Have you ever considered the import of the following passages?

Acts 2:23: "This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge;and you,with the help of wicked men,put him to death by nailing him to the cross."

Acts 3:27,28 : "Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus,whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

 

[steaver]

Have you ever considered the import of the following passages?

Acts 2:23: "This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge;and you,with the help of wicked men,put him to death by nailing him to the cross."

Acts 3:27,28 : "Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus,whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

I have. Can you explain why the crucifiers are responsible when God predestined them to commit this sin?

 

[webdog]

I wonder if you understand the question you are really asking? You are asking me Who determines JUST CONSEQUENCES to sin? That is all the curse really is - the just consequences to sin. Well, who is The Judge of all the earth? Is it Adam or God? It is the Judge that determines the consequences of violating His law not the lawbreaker!

How this destroys TULIP is beyond me?? If God had not forewarned Adam of the consequences (curse) then you might have a point and say Adam could not be charged with sin but God explicitly told him not to violate his law and warned him of the consequences in advance.

I don't follow your logic behind this question at all?

He's asking you about the first cause of sin in a straight forward, easy to understand way. Me thinks you are deliberately avoiding the answer as it will implicate your doctrine.

In addition the very etymology of the word respons-ibility requires ability.