Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Pride...............but the action was disobedience. If he had pride but took no action would he have sinned?
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Did Jesus teach Tulip ?
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Pride...............but the action was disobedience. If he had pride but took no action would he have sinned?
Dr. Walter
New Member
Well, we can agree on some things. I agree with you here.
I'm not sure we could say "pride" was any part of the sin. Afterall, Adam was without any sin nature. Pride would not have existed within him.
What in reallity was the choice Adam was given? Was it eat or not eat? Was the test a test of obedience?
I say we must look beyond the tree, beyond the command even. What really is the choice God presented to Adam and Eve?
Think about it a bit more Thinkingstuff, this is a good brain exercise for a screen name such as yours. Lol. I know you will see it plainly if I say it, but I want to give you a bit more time before I say.
God Bless!
savedbymercy
New Member
steaver
Then why did he sin ?
Then why did he sin ?
Lol, I gave that stuff up fourteen years ago, praise God! Look at it this way brother Jaigner, there are many non-essential doctrines deliberated by many different God loving Christians, it shouldn't cause us to belittle anyone, in the end God will put us all through the Refiners fire and the wood, hay and stubble will burn away and we will all will truly be in one accord! Praise Jesus! (Btw, we all will have some wood, hay and stubble, even brother Walter, lol) what remains will be what matters!
Now that is a good theological question! TULIP declares that a fallen man cannot possibly choose God for the heart is no good. So how is it that a perfect man who had a perfect heart could still choose sin?
Dr. Walter
New Member
Adam was created "upright" but not immutably upright! What you seem to fail to understand is that the power of choice is between right and wrong not between right and right or wrong and wrong. Secondly, there is no power of choice if there is no choice! Thirdly, whatever choice occurred it would be a test of accountablility to God to make the right choice, since God had told them in advance what the right choice was! Hence, the wrong choice was a pure act of rebellion.
Where in the scriptures can you find that God set up Adam to make the wrong choice and God predestinated Adam to sin? I would like to see the scripture. If there is no such scripture then what right do you have to give any legitimate claim to that philosophy especially if the Scriptures plainly and explicitly contradict that kind of interpetation???
We are in the realm of "theology". I have the same right as the TULIP believers who must theologically prod along believers to see such things as "Total Depravity" and "irresistable Grace" in the scriptures when no such scripture exist that specifically says those words.
You see?? Where in the scriptures can you find this?? It is your theological opinion. And I do not scold you for it, we all have liberty to one.
"Pure rebellion". How is it a perfect heart towards God could hate God so much??
Dr. Walter
New Member
The Bible nowhere says Adam was created with a "perfect" heart only a sinless heart. He was innocent of sin but his choice was a deliberate choice in full knowledge of right and wrong. He did not sin ignorantly. His choice was a choice and he knew it was the wrong choice because they hid from God.
Dr. Walter
New Member
The scriptures do not use those exact words but they do use synoymns for those exact words. There are texts that state it clearly as Romans 8:7 "neither indeed CAN be."
However, you have no scriptures, no synomyns - nothing to even speculate that God is the author of sin. Moreover, there are scriptures that contradict and condemn that very speculation.
You are wrong. I was quoting scripture when I said that -
Ec 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Could you elaborate on this? Are you now saying Adam was not perfect before he sinned?
savedbymercy
New Member
steaver
Do you have a answer ? Why would a man without a sin nature sin ? In Heaven man will not have a sin nature, do you think he will be able to sin then ?
Do you have a answer ? Why would a man without a sin nature sin ? In Heaven man will not have a sin nature, do you think he will be able to sin then ?
savedbymercy
New Member
steaver
In what way ? If you mean absolutely flawless then why did something God made absolutely flawless, become flawed ? If that is the case, how could we be sure that the coming Glorious state that God is going to make Perfect, will not become flawed as well ?
In what way ? If you mean absolutely flawless then why did something God made absolutely flawless, become flawed ? If that is the case, how could we be sure that the coming Glorious state that God is going to make Perfect, will not become flawed as well ?
Dr. Walter
New Member
Adam's heart was only "perfect" in the sense it was not defiled by sin. Neither fallen man or the regenerate man have the same heart that Adam had.
In regard to the fallen man, it should obvious that it is not the same heart as Adam possessed before the fall for it was defiled by sin whereas the prefallen Adam had a heart untainted by sin.
The fallen heart of Adam could not be reversed to a prefallen condition and that is precisely why the New Covenant declares God must give a "NEW" heart (Ezek. 36:26) because the fallen heart cannot perceive, see or hear (Deut. 24:9; Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14).
However, the inability of the fallen heart lies deeper than man's heart. The root of the problem is not the heart but spiritual separation or spiritual death. The heart condition is merely the effects of indwelling sin.
In the regenerated man, God gives a "New" heart but does not remove indwelling sin. That should be obvious because believers sin both by omission and by commission (1 Jn. 1:8-10).
However, what is actually born of God cannot sin. Our body is not born of God. Our soul (heart) is not born of God. It is the human spirit that is born of God (Jn. 3:6; 1 Jn. 3:9).
Remember, God told Adam that in the day he sinned he would also die. His body did not die in the day he sinned. His heart did not die in the day he sinned. It was in his spirit that spiritual death occurred in the day he sinned because God is Spirit and they who worship God must worship God "in spirit" (Jn. 4:24). In a saved person, The Spirit of God bears witness with our spirit.
In the fallen Adam, God was removed from his spirit and Satan works "in them" (Eph. 2:2-3) rather than God.
I realize you will reject what I am saying, however, there may be a chance that God can open your understanding to explore it.
This scripture only proves that unregenerated man is at enmity with God and connot be in harmony without being regenerated. It is a leap to say that this means man is incapable of answering yes to the call of the Holy Spirit and make a choice to believe.
Who's plan is it?
Ah, but you added the "but not immutably upright". This is not written but it is evident only by the fact that we know Adam changed from upright to sinner. I know Adam sinning was God's plan, because I know God is perfect and would not create a not so perfect plan.
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Do you have an answer? I do, but TULIP theology will not allow it for you.
"Why would a man without a sin nature sin ?" Innocence and ignorance, having no knowledge of good and evil.
"In Heaven man will not have a sin nature, do you think he will be able to sin then?" Ask yourself, what will be missing that was present in the garden of Eden? 1) Ignorance. 2) Satan.
Great questions! We can be sure because God has told us so! It is God's PLAN! Praise His glorious Name!
savedbymercy
New Member
steaver
I see you skating around the question, dont worry about it..
I see you skating around the question, dont worry about it..
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