Did Jesus turn the water into wine, or grape juice

[rjprince]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
I feel the questions should have been Did Jesus make alcoholic wine? or non-alcoholic wine?

This whole non-alcoholic wine argument is silly. If it is non-alcoholic it is juice, not wine.

I have yet to see anyone respond to the fact that John 2:10 uses the word methuw in describing the potential effects of wine that Jesus made...


Let's take this line of reasoning a bit farther...


Since some people are gluttons, the idea of eating in moderation could never have come from God...

Since some people are immoral, the idea of sex could never have come from God...


What is the difference in the line of reasoning?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
... the argument that Jesus drank alcoholic wine is a lame one.

You're right it's a lame argument. It's no argument at all. Jesus consumed alcoholic wine. That's a fact.

 

[macitruth]

Are you accusing 5/6 of us of being drunkards? I have never been drunk in my life and I certainly do not consider consuming an alcoholic beverage a form of entertainment. I would appreciate an apology.

There are many many ways of being a stumbling block, in my opinion among Christians legalistic self-righteousness is the major one.

my words were:

It has been my experience that most of the time people try to use this as an excuse to go out and have a good old time drinking and then excuse themselves.

If you do not fit that description then it doesn't apply to you. I'm not sure why that was so offensive to you. Just as I didn't take offense to your legalistic/ self- righteous comment you shouldn't be offended by my opinion.
I simply stated my position. I think thats what we are all doing here.

 

[macitruth]

by the way, did you just pull that 5/6 figure out of the clear blue sky? Or is that according to a survey, or what?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by macitruth:
It has been my experience that most of the time people try to use this as an excuse to go out and have a good old time drinking and then excuse themselves.

My experience is different. But it's likely because I don't have any friends or close associates that abuse alcohol. In fact, most of them do not consume alcohol at all. And yet, they see no reason to pretend, or add to scripture the myth that Jesus did not consume alcoholic wine.

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by macitruth:
by the way, did you just pull that 5/6 figure out of the clear blue sky? Or is that according to a survey, or what?

This poll. At the time I posted 85% said that Jesus made wine. I assume they also thought that he thought it was ok to drink it and it wasn't just for pretty.

If you don't mean to imply Christians in general who think drinking in moderation is acceptable are just drunkards looking for an excuse, perhaps you should phrase your posts more carefully in future.

 

[macitruth]

rofl...why is it that my opinion has been so offensive when I clearly catogorized it as MY EXPERIENCE? I have no intention to rephrase any of it in any way. I will not for one second condemn anyone who can consume alcohol without becoming intoxicated while maintaining a clear conscience.

 

[bapmom]

I, too, have never understood why it is so offensive to some of you here for some others of us to say that we choose not to consume any alcohol whatsoever.

We are automatically called legalistic and self-righteous, and accused of judging and condemning other people, when in fact all that was said was our opinion on the matter.......which was ASKED for.

I agree with macitruth, and I think he stated his position well.

 

[rjprince]

bapmom,

I am not the least bit offended that you choose not to consume any alcohol. That is my choice as well, and I started this one...

I have never consumed ANY beverage alcohol nor do suggest that it a good thing to do. In fact in the OP, I give some clear and IMO compelling arguements for total abstinence.

Unless you demand that others uphold your personal convictions that are less clearly stated in Scripture, I WOULD NEVER CALL YOU LEGALISTIC OR SELF-RIGHTEOUS!

IF ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU ARE WILLING TO TWIST CLEAR STATEMENTS IN SCRIPTURE TO ARGUE YOUR POINT, I WILL HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THAT!!!


And THAT was the point of the OP. To challenge us to think about whether or not our position on an issue is thoroughly Biblical or if it is a part of the particular Christian subculture in which we were raised.

And BTW, I was raised in the same "it was grape juice" "Jesus would never drink wine" and certainly "he would never make it!" subculture. When I first started studying this one out, MY GOAL was to learn how to prove from Scripture that any use of beverage alcohol was of the Devil and therefore forbidden to believers.

I just found myself unable to get there from the Text and unwilling to twist IT to make IT say what I wanted to say. But believe me, I tried.

 

[bapmom]

ok rjprince,

Ive never had to twist any Scripture in order to get to my viewpoint on this....nor have I ever been under the type of preaching you have described.

Were you yelling at me because you are angry? Or just emphasizing? I still believe that macitruth was quite polite in the way he stated things, and did not need to be called legalistic....it is thrown around too much around here with apparently no recourse for the person its thrown AT. Its not real fair, since the only true test of legalism is within the heart, and most of us here don't even see each other's OUTSIDE, much less their heart.

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by bapmom:
I, too, have never understood why it is so offensive to some of you here for some others of us to say that we choose not to consume any alcohol whatsoever.

I don't care if you drink no alcohol whatever or have a martini every evening. I do care if you imply that people who think that the Bible shows an occasional drink is ok are just trying to justify sinning.

 

[macitruth]

My experience is different. But it's likely because I don't have any friends or close associates that abuse alcohol. In fact, most of them do not consume alcohol at all. And yet, they see no reason to pretend, or add to scripture the myth that Jesus did not consume alcoholic wine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just curious, was that was intended to imply something?

 

[rjprince]

bmom,

Sorry. Did not mean to yell at you. Gotta remember to use bold instead of caps. Just a lot easier to hit the caps lock key than to put [ b ] and [ /b ] throughout my post.

And, I did not call anybody legalistic. Also gotta remember to tell you when I shift from speaking to you as an indvidual to everybody else as a group.

I only wanted you to know that I WAS RAISED IN THAT KIND ENVIRONMENT so it was not an easy transition to change my position on the matter when everybody, or at least most everybody, in my family and closest circle of friends think I have gone liberal on them! I must be true to my understanding of God's Word after literally HUNDREDS of hours on this subject rather than to what is popular within the IFB circles in which I most frequently move... At least for now, or until they get tired of my radical ideas, like "when the Bible says wine and well drunk that is what it means..." I am such a renegade! Wherever however whyever therefore did my parents fail so miserably?

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by macitruth:
rofl...why is it that my opinion has been so offensive when I clearly catogorized it as MY EXPERIENCE?

Because unless you state otherwise the implication is that your experience is normative.

I will not for one second condemn anyone who can consume alcohol without becoming intoxicated while maintaining a clear conscience.

Very good!

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by rjprince:
. . . it was not an easy transition to change my position on the matter when everybody, or at least most everybody, in my family and closest circle of friends think I have gone liberal on them!

I'm sorry, that must be very difficult. I'm glad you are following through on your convictions, though.

 

[rjprince]

No choice, at least not now. Made it years ago. Let God be true and every man a liar.

BTW, that "every man" includes me, and I always tell my people "you are only bound by what I say as your Pastor, to the degree that it accurately reflects what God has said in His Word." What a novel thought. Bereans, at Berea Baptist. Who woulda thunk it...

 

[macitruth]

originally posted by Petrel:
Because unless you state otherwise the implication is that your experience is normative.

No the implication is that has been my experience, if I want to imply that it is the norm, I'll use the term "normally"

 

[DeclareHim]

Did Jesus turn water into wine?

Yes.

 

[preachinjesus]

Did Jesus turn water into wine?

the text allows us no other conclusion

 

[James_Newman]

Of course it was wine, it was just not fermented.