Did Jesus use His own divine attributes...

[Craig CrossWise]

Herald,

Amen to that!

Here's kenosis as defined by Theopedia which is a good short definition:

http://www.theopedia.com/Kenosis

Christianity maintains that Jesus did not “empty” himself of any of his divinity in the incarnation, although it is true that his divine attributes were veiled. When the Kenosis theory concludes that Jesus is or was less than God (as has been the case in the past), it is regarded as heresy.

There are many times Jesus did not specifically claim it was the "Spirit" or the "Spirit of God" in His miracle workings. Besides, as I've mentioned, God IS Spirit and Jesus IS God. Given the Chalcedonian Creed of 451AD which states Jesus was/is fully God and fully man, why would we think He necessarily limited Himself?

I've been reading a lot about kenosis. Classical theologians state that the Incarnation was a taking on rather than an emptying. The Word added a human nature (not a human person as that would be Adoptionism). Yet, Jesus was clearly limited in physical presence in His physical body and not omnipresent as human bodies necessarily are. However, as Spirit, he WAS omnipresent existing extra carnem, outside the body, in order to sustain the cosmos (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3).

Here's an example of Jesus performing a miracle in which it's specifically NOT attributed to anyone else but Him:

22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?” [Matt 12:22-23, NIV 1984]

 

[Craig CrossWise]

Message deleted as it was a duplicate.

 

[Craig CrossWise]

Sorry for the duplicate. The first one didn't appear to have posted.

 

[JesusFan]

JesusFan,

Jesus was certainly 'perfect man'. And, of course, He ate, He slept and did other things as normal humans do. However, if your theory is correct we should expect the Apostles or perhaps Holy Spirit indwelled believers of today performing nature miracles such as stilling the wind/waves, stopping an earthquake mid-quake and repairing the resultant crack with a mere command or some such. Do you believe this has happened or will happen?

And, taking John 5:21 above, "For as the Father raises the dead...so the Son gives life to whom He will." - It would seem that to claim it was the Holy Spirit or the Father who provided the miracle of giving life rather than Jesus in and of Himself would be reading much into the text. Even so, would you think that we have the power to "give life" to whom WE will?

And, to think that Jesus retained yet refrained from using His 'omni' attributes for the entirety of the Incarnation would seem to involve a rather substantial change in the Word thereby violating immutability - historically an essential divine trait. Recall Hebrews 13:8, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever."

God is Spirit. Jesus is God. So, it follows that Jesus is also Spirit. This is necessary for the divine trait of omnipresence. The Word was not constrained to merely the flesh body of Jesus Christ; He was also sustaining the cosmos [Col 1:17; Heb 1:3] extra carnem - outside the body. This is explained in theological terms as the extra calvinisticum or, some say, extra catholicum.

All of this I do believe is of extreme importance as there are many out there who claim what I'll call the Annie Get Your Gun doctrine: 'Anything Jesus did I can do better' citing John 14:12 as "proof."

in the Incarnation pf God the Son, something new and unique happened to God, as he became a Human being, one w/o sin nature as rest of us though...

he was confined to same physical limitations as we all are, had to eat/sleep/tired, limited to one location etc...

jesus cast out demons by the HS, as he himself said, and He was empowered by same Spirit as the Christ"annoited One" full of grace and full of HS...

Jesus also had to recharge His spiritual cells when using that power, as he communed with His father in communion daily!

 

[plain_n_simple]

"Did Jesus use His own divine attributes...
...or live as a fully human man (though never ceasing to be fully God...simply never using His own divine abilities) who was enabled by God, Holy Spirit, to perform miracles while accomplishing redemption of mankind?"

No, He did not use His own ability. He shed His Godly authority to become like us. He said the works He performed were not His own doing, but the Fathers. He was fully man in perfect relationship with the Father.

 

[JesusFan]

"Did Jesus use His own divine attributes...
...or live as a fully human man (though never ceasing to be fully God...simply never using His own divine abilities) who was enabled by God, Holy Spirit, to perform miracles while accomplishing redemption of mankind?"

No, He did not use His own ability. He shed His Godly authority to become like us. He said the works He performed were not His own doing, but the Fathers. He was fully man in perfect relationship with the Father.

have to remember though that he did things ONLY God could do also while on Earth if form of a man!
Forgace sins, raised the dead, walked on water etc!

resisted sinning by empowering of the HS and communion with Father, but others things ONLY He can still do!

 

[Craig CrossWise]

in the Incarnation pf God the Son, something new and unique happened to God, as he became a Human being, one w/o sin nature as rest of us though...

he was confined to same physical limitations as we all are, had to eat/sleep/tired, limited to one location etc...

jesus cast out demons by the HS, as he himself said, and He was empowered by same Spirit as the Christ"annoited One" full of grace and full of HS...

Jesus also had to recharge His spiritual cells when using that power, as he communed with His father in communion daily!

My one question to you: How did the Word sustain the cosmos while Incarnate [cf. Col 1:17; Heb 1:3]?

 

[Craig CrossWise]

"Did Jesus use His own divine attributes...
...or live as a fully human man (though never ceasing to be fully God...simply never using His own divine abilities) who was enabled by God, Holy Spirit, to perform miracles while accomplishing redemption of mankind?"

No, He did not use His own ability. He shed His Godly authority to become like us. He said the works He performed were not His own doing, but the Fathers. He was fully man in perfect relationship with the Father.

Let's examine this Scripture:

21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. [John 5:21; NIV 1984]

This Scripture makes a direct comparison that just as the Father gives life; so, the Son gives lift to whom HE is pleased. By the plain reading of this verse, Jesus had divine authority AND power to give eternal life ["eternal life" made clear in v 24]. This identified Him as God as the Jews already understood and wanted to kill Him [v 18]. To make this into Jesus giving life by the power of the Holy Spirit seems to read in the text. However, assuming it is true that this was done by the Holy Spirit then, given that the Apostles did many of the same miracles as Jesus by the power of the same Holy Spirit, were they also able to "give life to whom THEY chose"? Of course not. This seems to make it more plausible that Jesus Himself "gave life" rather Jesus empowered by the Holy Spirit.

This is not to negate the times when it appears Jesus DID rely solely on the Holy Spirit, of course. However, we must keep in mind that God is Spirit. And, as I mentioned above, the Father is God; Jesus is God; and, the Holy Spirit is God.

 

[JesusFan]

My one question to you: How did the Word sustain the cosmos while Incarnate [cf. Col 1:17; Heb 1:3]?

God the Father still ruling in/from heaven, while the HS was present in person of Christ here upon the earth!

NOT Modualism, its not God in three different forms but same person, its 3 persons who are seperate, yet one in essense and agreement!

 

[Craig CrossWise]

God the Father still ruling in/from heaven, while the HS was present in person of Christ here upon the earth!

NOT Modualism, its not God in three different forms but same person, its 3 persons who are seperate, yet one in essense and agreement!

Exactly, it's not Modalism nor tritheism (three Gods). However, to construe that it was the Father who sustained the cosmos is reading into the text (eisegesis) rather than extracting from the text (exegesis).

 

[JesusFan]

Exactly, it's not Modalism nor tritheism (three Gods). However, to construe that it was the Father who sustained the cosmos is reading into the text (eisegesis) rather than extracting from the text (exegesis).

God the father was still residing in heaven at time Chrsit was upon the earth, is only thing was saying!