Did Judas drink damnation?

[Salamander]

Originally posted by rjprince:
Sal,

Apart from the acting of God's grace upon a person, that person will not come to God. No man can come “except it were given Him of the father” (John 6:65).

Ok, and "If Jesus be lifted up he will draw all men unto Him." I'm sorry if that doesn't sound familiar to you, but it is the Gospel.

Jesus told the Jews, “ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep” (John 10:26). Could they have believed? Sure, on the one hand, He was not preventing them from believing. Could they have come? Yes, except that it was never in their nature to come to Him.

Yes, and that is why when one becomes His sheep they now have that new nature that is oposed to the nature of being a goat. Before they were sheep of His pasture, they were not sheep at all.

Tie a buzzard to a stake in a grain field and he will starve to death. Could he eat? Sure. But he wont. It is not his nature to eat grain.

Good thing the Bible isn't wriiten to buzzards, huh?

Could the Jews have come? Yes, but their nature kept them from doing so.

No, not really, it was their pride actually, and they chose their pride over humility by, get this now, CHOICE.

The only ones who came were those given Him of the Father (John 6:65).

Excuse me? You're confusing the drawing power of the Holy Ghost with those who are come to Jesus and saved that cannot be taken out of His hand.

Is that God’s fault? No.

Well you are right about that!

Every person is born with a sin nature and they confirm it by their own repeated sinful choices. Any time someone comes to God, it is because He has drawn them, not because they thought of it themselves.

Right, and they were inspired to think otherwise of themselves because of the convincing of that sin nature by the drawing power of the Holy Ghost.

Abraham and Nicodemus? What, are you suggesting that they were righteous on their own? Abraham was justified by faith and he has nothing of which to glory (Rom 4:1-5).

You were too busy generalizing Jews and I thought I'd throw you a curve ball and you swung at it: STRIKE!

Nicodemus had to be born again, by the Spirit of God on the basis of his faith in the Lord Jesus (John 3:16). Was that not a result of the Grace of God?

Of course, but it was his conscious choice to come to Jesus at night as to not be seen by the Jews who might have derided him otherwise.

He was graced to see the miracles of Jesus and to respond to the light of the Lord.

And the Lord refuses no man light, even Judas was given light and he refused that Light

Jesus called Judas "a devil" in John 6:70. The fact that Satan did not enter him till later does not change the fact that Judas was always lost.

and all men are lost until they get found.

Did he have a chance to accept Jesus as His Savior? Of course. God did not hold him back. His own sin held him back.

Uh-huh, and that by his consious choice, that which Calvinists decide for God that men cannot consciously choose and make a decision to receive or reject the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

NNE WILL STAND IN GOD’S PRESENCE AND ACCUSE GOD OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. IT WILL BE SELF-EVIDENT THAT THEY ARE BEING RIGHTEOUSLY CONDEMNED FOR THEIR OWN WILLFUL SIN. (and yes I am yelling, here).

Right, no one will stand in God's presence, they will prostrate themselves, and now you contradict yourself, willfully, by saying now they are capable of self-willed sins.

(OK, done yelling) Isn’t it funny that while men are not in His immediate presence they do accuse God of being unrighteous in sovereignly ordained some to eternal life?

No, not funny at all, just human nature to attack what is best for them due to their ignorance and self-will.

Rom 9:18-32 –
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Salamander here, and He only hardens those who he has dealty with severely to the point they hardened their own hearts first. Pharoah is our example of that.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? me again, Those who serve the flesh and deny the Spirit
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Ah! Yes! they REPLY! and in total rebellion to the call of God to repentence!
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Yes, but first they must be clay, that entails water and certain protozoa to maintain the consistency of clay, and that honour comes from obedience to the command of God and that hand of chatsisement forms the dishonourable vessel due to lusts of the flesh. God is dealing with His children here, not saved and lost.22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and just who fitted them? Not God, he is not unrighteous, all His acts are righteous. Those fitted to wrath are the ones who are dead in tresspasses and sins and refuse Christ.
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Uh-huh, those who received His mercy
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Yep
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. I do hope you caught that! they were NOT His people nor were they beloved/ "elect"26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Because they are now His children and then, not until then, are they the ELECT.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: yes!
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. he's coming soon!
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. The seed of hope found in Jesus, it's called the Gospel
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. and God hath given to every man the measure of faith to either excercise that fiath or reject it's recourse
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Of course not, no man is made righteous by the works of the law
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Uh-huh, they had confidence in their hypocritical works and could not, neither those today who cannot, see that Jesus died in their stead as the Propitiation for their thier sin: they are ones who do not excercise that measure of faith.

“Rightly dividing... limiting to one edge?” Yep. If I had a double-edged sword, like you, maybe I could understand the word? Maybe there is hope for me yet!

OH BUT WAIT! My Sword does have two edges! Both the Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of man.

Ok, so you do have a sword, but may I suggest the One that is sharper than ANY tw0-edged sword? The Bible!

I do not make the sovereignty of God subject to the free will of man.

Don't know anyone who can.

God did not chose after He already knew what man would do! God chose according to His own sovereignty!

Yes, and man choses after that choice of God to save all that will call upon Him in the day they are convicted of their ungodliness

How does that fit with the free will of man? I do not know. BUT, I do not try to explain it by grinding off one side of MY sword.

May I suggest you pick up God's Sword?

Maybe I am not the one with only one edge? And sorry if I sound a bit edgy here. I have succumbed and allowed myself to be drawn into the rhetoric and mood of the moment...

Moody are we? It would be unrighteous of God to allow men to be created without ever giving them the hope of salvation, but it is the man who denies himself that ample opportunity as it is that God hath lightened every man as to choose. It also would make God a tyrant to those who "could not be saved" due to His "choosing".

There is no rhetoric here, only sound biblical truht that God .

Hebrews 11:6But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


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Compared with

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Pro 7:15 Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.

It is man's diligence that rewards him with finding the Truth. IT IS THAT SEARCHING MAN DOES THAT BY FAITH (didn't mean to yell) Any man will find the truth of God if he will seek Him by faith, but first he must seek according to Truth.

After he's sought Him diligently, and by faith received the Truth of the Gospel, then he has found God seeking the man.

Jesus came to seek and to save that which is lost. All men are lost prior to salvation, and those who choose to remain lost will remain lost.

Diligence is the key that opens the lock of faith that opens the Door to salvation.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Calvibaptist (quote)
And from those verses we see that God is absolutely sovereign and has chosen, before the foundation of the world, who He would save . It is perfectly within His right to do so.


That's just a few, but should be plenty to get my point across. We see in these verses that the choice is held out to man to believe or reject and he is held responsible for that choice.

Why can't you see the above statements are contrary to one another. You can't have it both ways.

So, do you believe the Bible contradicts itself? Because those two statements were almost word for word from the verses I quoted.

Calvinists believe in what they call compatibalism (no, not cannibalism). These two, seemingly contradictory truths, are both taught in the Scripture. Therefore, they must both be true. And since they are both in the plan of God, they must not conflict, but be compatible.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Salamander:
Ok, and "If Jesus be lifted up he will draw all men unto Him." I'm sorry if that doesn't sound familiar to you, but it is the Gospel.

This is the only part of this post I am going to respond to because I am tired of hearing this thrown into our face as if we forgot this verse (along with John 3:16 and 1 Timothy 2:4) was actually part of the New Testament.

You guys always give this verse in response to John 6:44 that says "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Now, look closely at that verse.

1) No one is able (the meaning of the word "can") to come to Jesus
2) UNLESS the Father draws that individual who doesn't have the natural ability
3) That person who is drawn, who then comes, will be raised up by Jesus at the last day.

Do you see the point? Everyone who is drawn comes to Jesus. Everyone who is drawn is raised up at the last day. There is no one, in this context, who is drawn who doesn't come. There is no one, in this context, who is drawn who isn't raised up at the last day. THIS IS EFFECTUAL CALLING.

Now, put this up beside one of your favorite passages - "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men to myself."

1) Contingency - IF I be lifted up. Was Jesus lifted up? Yes, because the next verse tells us tht He was talking about the method of His death.
2) He will draw all men to himself.

Now, here's the problem. Is every human that every lived saved? NO. So, obviously, either the "draw" here is not the same "draw" as in John 6 because the result of the "draw" in John 6 was that everyone who was drawn came, OR the "all men" doesn't mean every single person who has ever lived. Maybe it means Jews and Gentiles alike rather than just Jews.

Until you can answer these two verses together without just throwing out "well everyone is drawn but some don't believe" then don't bring it up. It just shows your lack of understanding of biblical exegesis.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Salamander:

Hebrews 11:6But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


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Compared with

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Pro 7:15 Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.

It is man's diligence that rewards him with finding the Truth. IT IS THAT SEARCHING MAN DOES THAT BY FAITH (didn't mean to yell) Any man will find the truth of God if he will seek Him by faith, but first he must seek according to Truth.

After he's sought Him diligently, and by faith received the Truth of the Gospel, then he has found God seeking the man.

Jesus came to seek and to save that which is lost. All men are lost prior to salvation, and those who choose to remain lost will remain lost.

Diligence is the key that opens the lock of faith that opens the Door to salvation.

I know you didn't just quote from Proverbs 7:15 to talk about diligence in seeking God!!! Did you think we wouldn't look it up? Here it is in its context:

Proverbs 7:10-21 And there a woman met him, With the attire of a harlot, and a crafty heart. 11 She was loud and rebellious, Her feet would not stay at home. 12 At times she was outside, at times in the open square, Lurking at every corner. 13 So she caught him and kissed him; With an impudent face she said to him: 14 "I have peace offerings with me; Today I have paid my vows. 15 So I came out to meet you, Diligently to seek your face, And I have found you. 16 I have spread my bed with tapestry, Colored coverings of Egyptian linen. 17 I have perfumed my bed With myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon. 18 Come, let us take our fill of love until morning; Let us delight ourselves with love. 19 For my husband is not at home; He has gone on a long journey; 20 He has taken a bag of money with him, And will come home on the appointed day." 21 With her enticing speech she caused him to yield, With her flattering lips she seduced him.

It is talking about a harlot seeking a man to lie with her. This has nothing to do with a man seeking God. Please sharpen your sword before you try to show us how to use it.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
It is talking about a harlot seeking a man to lie with her. This has nothing to do with a man seeking God. Please sharpen your sword before you try to show us how to use it.

Kinda reminds me of a J Vernon McGee (sp?) show I heard once where he related a story about how someone's favorite verse was "And it came to pass". It was her favorite verse because she thought it meant that no matter how bad things are today, things will always come to pass.

 

[Salamander]

Your problem Calvi is that you cannot discern that God calls all men to repentence. All men are drawn. Jesus made emphatic Truth that because of the choices by men, that even though they are drawn, because He has been lift up, it is men who then choose.

Jesus is the Saviour of all men from their sins, not the Garden of Eden blocked by a flaming sword.

No man has natural ability to come to Jesus, but his nature is sinful and will not come until convinced he is a sinner, that is by his choice to reckon himself as such, though all have sinned.

It's called acknowledging God so that our paths may lead to repentence.

IF Jesus had said things to fit your dogma, this conversation wouldn't even be happening. But since Jesus said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish", he gave them the choice to see themselves as they really are.

Tell you what, you go with Calvin and I'll go with Jesus, ok?

 

[Salamander]

It is talking about a harlot seeking a man to lie with her. This has nothing to do with a man seeking God. Please sharpen your sword before you try to show us how to use it.

Really? Garsh, I didn't know that! I thought it had to do with diligence in seeking something, I'm really sorry.

I said "compared with", not align with. See that's it, yall look at things with Calvinist blinders on.

Jesus also gave example of a woman diligently seeking her lost coin. Are you trying to tell us that God has to diligently seek the sinner as if He lost a coin under the boardwalk???

 

[Salamander]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
It is talking about a harlot seeking a man to lie with her. This has nothing to do with a man seeking God. Please sharpen your sword before you try to show us how to use it.

Kinda reminds me of a J Vernon McGee (sp?) show I heard once where he related a story about how someone's favorite verse was "And it came to pass". It was her favorite verse because she thought it meant that no matter how bad things are today, things will always come to pass. </font>[/QUOTE]God shall bring it to pass, unless you believe we'll suffer tribulation in Heaven???

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Salamander:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It is talking about a harlot seeking a man to lie with her. This has nothing to do with a man seeking God. Please sharpen your sword before you try to show us how to use it.

Really? Garsh, I didn't know that! I thought it had to do with diligence in seeking something, I'm really sorry.

I said "compared with", not align with. See that's it, yall look at things with Calvinist blinders on.

Jesus also gave example of a woman diligently seeking her lost coin. Are you trying to tell us that God has to diligently seek the sinner as if He lost a coin under the boardwalk???

</font>[/QUOTE]Sal, I would have rather you chose a verse that actually talked about men seeking God (of which there are some) to prove your point. Instead, you pulled a verse completely out of context and then went on for three paragraphs talking about something the verse didn't say. That is poor pedagogy and even poorer hermeneutics.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Salamander:
Your problem Calvi is that you cannot discern that God calls all men to repentence. All men are drawn. Jesus made emphatic Truth that because of the choices by men, that even though they are drawn, because He has been lift up, it is men who then choose.

Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

Oops. I guess Jesus forgot the Father's desire to call all men to repentance. His comment was directed at the Pharisees who thought they were righteous. He did not come to call them to repentance.

Jesus is the Saviour of all men from their sins, not the Garden of Eden blocked by a flaming sword.

No man has natural ability to come to Jesus, but his nature is sinful and will not come until convinced he is a sinner, that is by his choice to reckon himself as such, though all have sinned.

It's called acknowledging God so that our paths may lead to repentence.

IF Jesus had said things to fit your dogma, this conversation wouldn't even be happening. But since Jesus said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish", he gave them the choice to see themselves as they really are.

Tell you what, you go with Calvin and I'll go with Jesus, ok?

Funny that both John Calvin, and I, have said all of the things you just spoke of (although maybe they haven't come up on this board). All are commanded (that's the word your looking for from Acts 17:30) to repent. Without repentance all (everyone) will perish. I just preached on that passage last week from Luke 13 and gave a great free-will gospel presentation. Recognition of sinfulness is important. Calvinists are famous for using the Law to call men to account. Gee, Paul did that too. You obviously know nothing about Calvin or Calvinism.

 

[AresMan]

What does all this have to do with "Did Judas drink damnation?"?

Of course, the word "damnation" in the English of the KJV translating the Greek does not always refer to eternal damnation. It can refer to punishment, chastisement, or to anything that just plain isn't fun.

 

[Salamander]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Salamander:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It is talking about a harlot seeking a man to lie with her. This has nothing to do with a man seeking God. Please sharpen your sword before you try to show us how to use it.

Really? Garsh, I didn't know that! I thought it had to do with diligence in seeking something, I'm really sorry.

I said "compared with", not align with. See that's it, yall look at things with Calvinist blinders on.

Jesus also gave example of a woman diligently seeking her lost coin. Are you trying to tell us that God has to diligently seek the sinner as if He lost a coin under the boardwalk???

</font>[/QUOTE]Sal, I would have rather you chose a verse that actually talked about men seeking God (of which there are some) to prove your point. Instead, you pulled a verse completely out of context and then went on for three paragraphs talking about something the verse didn't say. That is poor pedagogy and even poorer hermeneutics. </font>[/QUOTE]Not really, but if you say so

I was asking you to compare the diligence of man in the will of God in seeking Him and the person totally out of the will of God seeking anything.

get it? COMPARE!

You wrote your understanding into what I was saying, but that is error on your behalf.

Every man has sought God in some degree, why even the most domgatic atheist has tried to prove the very person he doesn't believe in doesn't exist.

For one to never seek God? Not in efforts of righteousness, except to either receive His righteousness or try to establish their own.

You tout that no man has ever sought after God, but the promise still goes that any man that will diligently seek Him will find Him and be rewarded.

If you take Romans 3 in context, though it does apply to both sinner and saint, the sinner who is holding the creature above the Creator is the one who has not sought God.

 

[Salamander]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Salamander:
Your problem Calvi is that you cannot discern that God calls all men to repentence. All men are drawn. Jesus made emphatic Truth that because of the choices by men, that even though they are drawn, because He has been lift up, it is men who then choose.

Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

Oops. I guess Jesus forgot the Father's desire to call all men to repentance. His comment was directed at the Pharisees who thought they were righteous. He did not come to call them to repentance. Salamander here. I think you contradicted yourself again when you compare what you just said with your last few statements

Jesus is the Saviour of all men from their sins, not the Garden of Eden blocked by a flaming sword.

No man has natural ability to come to Jesus, but his nature is sinful and will not come until convinced he is a sinner, that is by his choice to reckon himself as such, though all have sinned.

It's called acknowledging God so that our paths may lead to repentence.

IF Jesus had said things to fit your dogma, this conversation wouldn't even be happening. But since Jesus said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish", he gave them the choice to see themselves as they really are.

Tell you what, you go with Calvin and I'll go with Jesus, ok?

Funny that both John Calvin, and I, have said all of the things you just spoke of (although maybe they haven't come up on this board). All are commanded (that's the word your looking for from Acts 17:30) to repent. Without repentance all (everyone) will perish. I just preached on that passage last week from Luke 13 and gave a great free-will gospel presentation. Recognition of sinfulness is important. Calvinists are famous for using the Law to call men to account. Gee, Paul did that too. You obviously know nothing about Calvin or Calvinism.</font>[/QUOTE]You said the Pharisees weren't told to repent, then you say all men are commanded to repent, which is it?? I already know, it is all men everywhere.

 

[Salamander]

Originally posted by AresMan:
What does all this have to do with "Did Judas drink damnation?"?

Of course, the word "damnation" in the English of the KJV translating the Greek does not always refer to eternal damnation. It can refer to punishment, chastisement, or to anything that just plain isn't fun.

But it does refer to eternal damnation when applied to the impenitent in Judas' circumstance as well as any impenitent who unworthily partakes and never repents and is never saved.

But what I answered hasn't much to do with the subject, except I was attacked by my brethren who hold to a false doctrine known as Calvinism.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Salamander:
Not really, but if you say so

I was asking you to compare the diligence of man in the will of God in seeking Him and the person totally out of the will of God seeking anything.

get it? COMPARE!

You wrote your understanding into what I was saying, but that is error on your behalf.

The problem, Sal, is you didn't say that. You quoted two verses that both contain the words "diligently seek" in them and told us to compare them. Then you wrote three paragraphs that dealt exclusively with man being diligent to seek God.

In my estimation, you could have left the second verse out if you weren't going to write anything in those three paragraphs about man seeking something other than God. You are just now doing that. If you had done that at first, we wouldn't be having this conversation. It has nothing to do with Calvinism-Arminianism, but everything to do with how you use a verse to prove your point and actually explaining the point you are trying to prove.

Every man has sought God in some degree, why even the most domgatic atheist has tried to prove the very person he doesn't believe in doesn't exist.

I, because the Bible says, "there is none who seeks after God," would rephrase this to say that every man has sought some form of god. The problem isn't that they are not seeking. The problem is that they are seeking the wrong thing. They are making their own gods. Every man is an idolator.

For one to never seek God? Not in efforts of righteousness, except to either receive His righteousness or try to establish their own.

Idolatry.

You tout that no man has ever sought after God, but the promise still goes that any man that will diligently seek Him will find Him and be rewarded.

If you walk to China, I promise I will give you a million dollars. The problem isn't with the promise, the problem is with the inability to walk to China. God makes the promises. God also states that man cannot meet the criteria without supernatural recreation.

If you take Romans 3 in context, though it does apply to both sinner and saint, the sinner who is holding the creature above the Creator is the one who has not sought God.

That would be every unbeliever who has ever lived.

 

[Salamander]

So now you'll take other portions of Romans and only apply them to the believer, but when the Bible is clearly speaking to admonish believers about ONLY the state of the reprobate and soon to be reprobates, you subjectively change the Bible to fit your dogma.

If you walk to China, I promise I will give you a million dollars. The problem isn't with the promise, the problem is with the inability to walk to China. God makes the promises. God also states that man cannot meet the criteria without supernatural recreation.

Ok, so I'll walk back and forth on the ship going to China until I get there

I, because the Bible says, "there is none who seeks after God," would rephrase this to say that every man has sought some form of god. The problem isn't that they are not seeking. The problem is that they are seeking the wrong thing. They are making their own gods. Every man is an idolator.

But what about the ones seeking the Right God? You somehow forget about the ones who seek Him in Spirit and in Truth!

The problem, Sal, is you didn't say that. You quoted two verses that both contain the words "diligently seek" in them and told us to compare them. Then you wrote three paragraphs that dealt exclusively with man being diligent to seek God.

I didn't say either way. I dealt exclusively with only the one aspect of man seeking God leaving the other aspect of a sinful crerated being diligently seeking anything to make comparison. If the laying in wait to seduce diligently seeks the victim and ensnares him, then why wouldn't that apply directly to a man seeking God which is much better? Do you mean to tell me that God will allow the approach to sin have precedence over the apporach to Him??

The subject is about Judas and him drinking damnation. You have hijacked the thread into a C and A debate, of which I will have no part since both dogmas are in error.

I am dealing specifically with your thought process and trying to let you realise your error