Did Judas repent?

[AITB]

If the religious leaders had understood about God's forgiveness and told Judas about it, when he brought back the money, instead of sending him away, would we have read in the Bible that he went on to become a new man?

Was he truly repentant but he had no-one to tell him that that was enough...? So, not understanding anything about Jesus and with no-one to tell him about the grace of God towards those who know they are sinners, he hanged himself before he ever got to hear about the resurrection (on earth, I mean)?

Is he in hell?

Why did Jesus say it would be better if he had never been born? Does that prove he's in hell?

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by AITB:
If the religious leaders had understood about God's forgiveness and told Judas about it, when he brought back the money, instead of sending him away, would we have read in the Bible that he went on to become a new man?

Was he truly repentant but he had no-one to tell him that that was enough...? So, not understanding anything about Jesus and with no-one to tell him about the grace of God towards those who know they are sinners, he hanged himself before he ever got to hear about the resurrection (on earth, I mean)?

Is he in hell?

Why did Jesus say it would be better if he had never been born? Does that prove he's in hell?

Based on his actions, I'd have to say no, he was not truly repentant. True repentance requires a true belief, and it would include feeling sorrow and sympathy toward others who were harmed by your actionsm, not for yourself. Had he truly believed on Jesus, he would have fell on his knees and begged his forgiveness. Did he ever ask for forgiveness or trust that God could handle his sin? No, he clung to that guilt and didn't trust God with it, and when he couldn't handle it on his own, he chose death instead of doing what should have been done.
Gina

 

[Star]

Heres the paradox, Judas (in Zech) or Satan (you pick because Satan entered Judas) is seen talking talking with the Lord Himself, or rather the Lord with either one of them here...

In Zech 11:13And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Mathew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

From what I understand the preists were to put someone like Judas to death after the confession (I need to find that verse)

They themselves reccognized it wasn't lawful in mathew 27:6 to recieve money for the death of innocent blood here...

And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.

in the verse prior (mathew 27:4) Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that].

After Judas repenteth himself, confesses that he betrays innocent blood, they shrug that off saying SEE TO THAT YOURSELF (knowing what should have been done). He casts the silver (he doesn't keep the reward) So I wonder about this, there are other verses stating things as the diciples conclude to the contrary concerning Judas but there was provisions in the law and prophesies to consider concerning these things which have more weight in these circumstances.

In mathew 27:9 This was a fulfillment of scripture on how Jesus would be betrayed noting Jeremiah but never mentions Zechariah where the Sword itself is seen against His Sheperd and against the disciples right where the 30 peices of silver are exchanged speaking much the same as Jeremiah here...

Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

Heres what I'm talking about in Zech 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

And the placement of this prophecy is here in the midst of the betrayal

Mathew 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Jesus was given HIMSELF (as my good freind Ken brought back to my rememberance) and the twelve one was lost.... meaning if you counted Jesus Himself there were thirteen, there are other things Ken gets me to consider concerning these things but I'm still looking at them but they seem to make great sense concerning the other evidences as well as what appears to be contradiction, but its clear in Jeremiah it was speaking of Judas (Or Satan) and Zechariah in its context that there is more here then meets the eye.

In Reference to the one who betrays the Lord (in scripture) it speaks of Him as a man MINE EQUAL who lifted up against Christ but also these things were written long before Christ and had part in bringing Him to the Cross the very hour He knew that would come and the hour that needed to be fulfilled.

Everyone seemed to have a place in that prophecy. Still looking into these things myself.

I'll look forward to the responses here

In Him Kim

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by Gina:

Based on his actions, I'd have to say no, he was not truly repentant. True repentance requires a true belief, and it would include feeling sorrow and sympathy toward others who were harmed by your actionsm, not for yourself. Had he truly believed on Jesus, he would have fell on his knees and begged his forgiveness.

I'm assuming he didn't repent immediately. Maybe it took a while.

I mean, which of us repents immediately, in most instances?

So Jesus was probably not accessible to him by the time he realized what he had done.

Did he ever ask for forgiveness or trust that God could handle his sin? No, he clung to that guilt and didn't trust God with it, and when he couldn't handle it on his own, he chose death instead of doing what should have been done.

He went to the religious leaders. How do you know that wasn't all he knew to do, to seek forgiveness? How would he have known he could just ask God for it? Who would have told him that in the day in which he lived?

How do you know he didn't do the exact thing that would have been the best he could figure out, that a repentant person would do - go to the religious leaders?

Explain to me how he could have known he could just 'pray' by himself and be forgiven.

He didn't have a New Testament and he probably didn't have his own Hebrew Scriptures either.

 

[Johnv]

Did he repent? Well, the Bible doesn't specifically say "and he repented", but it doesn't say "he did not repent". If we go strictly by the Bible, we just don't know. But if we go by his actions, I'd have to guess "no".

The best answer is probably not, but we don't know.

As far as whether he's in Hell, again, you'd think so, but it's a "we don't know" scenario. Only God knows the answer to that.

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by Johnv:
But if we go by his actions, I'd have to guess "no".

I'm curious which actions lead you to think he didn't repent.

His suicide?

Or were you thinking of something else?

 

[Gina B]

AITB: I'm assuming he didn't repent immediately. Maybe it took a while.

Gina: What is necessary for repentance, and what comes along with it? People at peace do not commit suicide.

AITB: So Jesus was probably not accessible to him by the time he realized what he had done.

Gina: Judas spent many hours at the side of Jesus. Surely he was told who Jesus was. This is just further proof that he didn't truly believe it.

AITB: He went to the religious leaders. How do you know that wasn't all he knew to do, to seek forgiveness? How would he have known he could just ask God for it? Who would have told him that in the day in which he lived?

Gina: He also went to the chief priests, scribes, and Pharisees to betray Jesus in the first place. WHO WOULD HAVE TOLD HIM? Jesus. He taught these things.

AITB: How do you know he didn't do the exact thing that would have been the best he could figure out, that a repentant person would do - go to the religious leaders?

Gina: Same answer as above. If you slap me, don't go and ask your hand for forgiveness. And WAS he seeking forgiveness? No, he was depending on his own ability to get rid of his sin. He was trying to wash his hands of the whole affair.

AITB: Explain to me how he could have known he could just 'pray' by himself and be forgiven.
He didn't have a New Testament and he probably didn't have his own Hebrew Scriptures either.

Gina: Yes, he did. He had the word become flesh. He walked beside him, talked with him, dined with him, was taught by him, and was called a friend by him.
Do you really think that with all of this, written scriptures would have made all the difference?
Gina

 

[John the Revelator]

AITB,
U ask very good questions.

I think Judas went to the bad place.
The bigger question is : Why is this in the bible? I say this
Because I believe there is a great lesson to be learned here.
It's a very sobering picture.

JR

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by John the Revelator:
AITB,
U ask very good questions.

I think Judas went to the bad place.
The bigger question is : Why is this in the bible? I say this
Because I believe there is a great lesson to be learned here.
It's a very sobering picture.

JR

You ask good questions too!

Ok then - why is it in the Bible?

 

[John the Revelator]

Oh, i asked that kind of rhetorically(is that a word?)
in other words i think it has alot to teach us..

R

 

[Walguy]

When in doubt, consult the original Greek.
The Greek word used in reference to Judas in Matthew 27:3 is a different word than the one used by Jesus, John the Baptiser, etc. to describe Christian repentance. The latter means a complete change of mind and view, which is what happens when one turns his back on his former sinful thoughts and ways to follow Christ. The former is a more casual word, used to describe simple regret.
I believe Judas Iscariot had one abiding interest in life, and that was Judas Iscariot. I think he believed that Jesus was truly the Christ of God, but also that the Christ was going to use His power to defeat the Romans and set up a Kingdom on earth, rather than die for our sins. I think he got impatient with all the teaching and philosophy, and decided that betraying Him into the hands of the authorities would force Him to act as the conquering Messiah Judas saw Him as. Since he was one of Jesus' closest followers, this would certainly mean great power and riches for him, which was his primary concern.
In the early morning of Good Friday it had become apparent to Judas that Jesus wasn't going to fight back, and that he, Judas, had made a terrible mistake. The only conclusion he could draw was that Jesus wasn't really the Messiah after all, which meant that he had betrayed an innocent man. Thus, he regretted what he had done, and when he couldn't undo it he was driven to suicide by his guilt.
Had he truly 'repented', he would have gone down on his knees and begged God's forgiveness, promising to turn from his selfish, thieving ways to a new life. That he instead chose to take his own life shows clearly that all he felt was normal human remorse over a tragic mistake. Hence the use of a different word to decribe what Judas felt.

 

[AITB]

Hi Walguy,

I consulted the Greek and look what I found...

Did you know the same Greek verb is used in this passage?

Matt 21:28 " But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, `Son, go, work today in my vineyard.' 29 "He answered and said, `I will not,' but afterward he regretted it and went. 30 "Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, `I [go], sir,' but he did not go. 31 "Which of the two did the will of [his] father?" They said to Him, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you. 32 "For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw [it], you did not afterward relent and believe him.

Are you still going to claim that it always means no more than 'simple regret', after seeing how Jesus used it in this passage? Here Jesus used it of a kind of 'regret' that led to an 180% turnaround in the son's behavior.

And what is repentance that leads to salvation, if it is not that?

 

[Helen]

Here is what Jesus says about it:

While I was with them, I protectd them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

In Luke 22:3 we read that Satan entered Judas. This was AFTER Judas had spent three years with Christ. However, as I recall, he had also been stealing money from Christ for that time! In other words, he had progressively hardened his heart to Christ. He did not tell the chief priests where Jesus could be found on a whim, but he had already gone to the chief priests to find out if he could get a price for betraying Jesus to them! And we read in Matthew 26:15b-16: So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.

Yes, when Judas saw that he had betrayed Christ to the death, he 'was seized with remorse' is the way the NIV puts it, and threw the money back at the priests and went out and hanged himself.

Did he not know he could ask for forgiveness? Yes, he knew. He had been with Christ for three years. He had seen Christ forgive sins and heal people. Judas was not a dummy. But he also knew that in betraying God Himself there was nothing left for him. There will come a time for every man who has not repented and turned to Christ for salvation that each will be faced, terrifyingly, with the stark truth about it all. And it will be too late. That, to me, is the horror of it -- there will come a time when it is too late. And so we read what the writer of Hebrews says:

Today, if you hear his voice,
Do not harden your hearts.

 

[Walguy]

Perhaps the best way to illustrate the difference between these two words is to look at a passage where BOTH are used, II Corinthians 7:8-10. I'll use bold text for the word for Christian repentance, and italics for the weaker word.

For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it (though I did regret it), for I see that that letter grieved you, though only for a while. As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting; for you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. For godly grief produces a repentancethat leads to salvation and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death.

The kind of regret the one word refers to CAN, of course, lead to the kind of repentance described by the other. In that sense there is a potential relation between them, although by no means necessarily so. By itself, the regret described by the weaker word can also lead to death, spiritual and/or literal (as in the case of Judas).
In Jesus' parable, the correct word for the changed attitude of the first son is obviously the weaker word, for the situation He was talking about was purely a worldly one in and of itself. I believe that He used this word a second time in his follow-up remarks so that the tie to the parable was clear. In that instance He was using it in its sense as the first step toward the complete Christian repentance described by the other, stronger word.
Thank you for your comments, btw. That was a very good post!

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by Helen:
Here is what Jesus says about it:

While I was with them, I protectd them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Good point

I have to admit I wasn't thinking of that passage in John's gospel

It's pretty hard to argue that Judas was saved in view of that Scripture.

[...]

There will come a time for every man who has not repented and turned to Christ for salvation that each will be faced, terrifyingly, with the stark truth about it all. And it will be too late. That, to me, is the horror of it -- there will come a time when it is too late. And so we read what the writer of Hebrews says:

Today, if you hear his voice,
Do not harden your hearts.

Understood...

Btw, I sometimes feel like Christians have very hard hearts ...but I suppose that's not relevant, is it?

[ May 23, 2002, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: AITB ]

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by Walguy:
Thank you for your comments, btw. That was a very good post!

Thanks

I will think about what you wrote.

 

[Star]

Can someone provide me Old Testament Scripture to connect Judas in the fulfillment of them cooncerning His particular doom, I see in acts the appostles quoted one thing, but in light of Zech it doesn't fit in.

If He was a "man mine equal" and in Zech the Lord in prophetic writings is speaking to Him about the money given to him (Judas) he would not have to "Repent" in the real sense of the word if he's being instructed by God and SENT by Christ to do what had already been predetermined according to Gods will and put in his heart to do.

Examining every angle here.

In Him Kim

 

[ken1burton]

First: Under Jewish law, If you bore witness against someone, and that person was found to be innocent. The one who witnessed was to get the sentence for the Crime, In this case DEATH.

It is not a case of having known Forgiveness. The Jewish Priesthood was required to follow God's law given through Moses. When the Priests told Judas "You see to that." they were givng Judas the Authority which they should have carried out themselves, to execute Himself.

Here is the law in Deuteronomy that star was looking for:
(DEUTERONOMY 19:16) If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; (KJV)
(DEUTERONOMY 19:17) Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; (KJV)
(DEUTERONOMY 19:18) And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; (KJV)
(DEUTERONOMY 19:19) Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. (KJV)

Because the Jewish Priesthood did not care if Jesus was innocent or not. They did not carry out this, as they would have had to set Jesus free.

Second: The Son of Perdition is the one lost. Jesus was given 12 Disciples and Power over His own life, to lay it down and to take it up again. To lay it down was to do God's will and willingly take sin upon Himself.

The Iniquity of us ALL ALL ALL as Isaiah 53:6 shows, That would include any iniquity Judas had. As Judas was doing this, The Disciples had also fled. Peter was saying He did not know Jesus, many forms of Iniquity here being committed. But Jesus has them all upon Himself.

(ISAIAH 53:6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (KJV)

Third: Judas is fulfill the Scriptures. Judas is "PEACE"

(PSALMS 85:10) Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. (KJV)
(PSALMS 2:12) Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. (KJV)
(MATTHEW 26:49) And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. (KJV)

The prophecies show that the kiss has to be fulfilled. And Judas is the "Peace" which kissed "Righteousness" which is Jesus.

(ISAIAH 55:12) For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. (KJV)

Judas is Peace, He lead them into the Garden, He leads them out. The mountains are the Priests, the hills are the 144 with Judas. Prophecies are songs, Singing is as they are being fulfilled, they are Praise when they are fulfilled.

(ISAIAH 60:17) For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. (KJV)

Judas is the OFFICER, He is given the band of men to take Jesus.

Fourth: "Good for this man if he had never been born."

God at the end of Malachi, end of the Old Testament said He would send Elijah. Elijah was to prepare the way before the Lord. Elijah was carried up alive in a whirlwind to God. (Flaming chariot just separated Elisha and Elijah.)

The Jewish nation was and still is awaiting Elijah, a plate is set for Elijah at the passover meal. JUDAS comes in the SPIRIT of Elijah preparing the way before Jesus. "THAT WHICH YOU DO, DO QUICKLY." Had Elijah come physically, He would not have had to be born.

As all prophecies are for the day of the cross, Heaven and earth passed away as the face of the Third beast with 6-wings is Sunrise to noon. Old heaven and old earth was the first two 6-hour periods. Heaven and earth had to pass away before one jot or tittle could pass from the law. So John the Baptist could not have been Elijah, as He is not there to fulfill the prophecy. Judas is.

Isaiah 42:19/21 shows Jesus was blind to some things.

(ISAIAH 42:19) Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord's servant? (KJV)
(ISAIAH 42:20) Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. (KJV)

(MALACHI 4:5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: (KJV)
(MALACHI 4:6) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (KJV)

Jesus is made all things cursed. He is also as the earth. As the Jewish nation did not turn their hearts to God, Jesus is the earth that is smitten. God's word like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29 is the earth destroyed by fire as Jesus dies on the cross.

Fifth: Judas hanging himself:
Hanged himself=confessed.
Bowels gushed out=spilled his guts=confessed.

Here is the PROBLEM: Judas is STILL ALIVE when the Disciples chose another to replace him in Acts. For a DEAD MAN can not go to "HIS OWN PLACE."

(ACTS 1:25) That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. (KJV)

Sixth: Judas does not go to hell. Judas is seen in Scripture prophecies as repenting and being accepted by God.

(JOB 33:27) He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not; (KJV)
(JOB 33:28) He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light. (KJV)
(JOB 33:29) Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man, (KJV)
(JOB 33:30) To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living. (KJV)

If you want context for these verses. Prophecy for Jesus on the cross and the one called the good thief preceed the verses, along with Jesus rendering to man His righteousness.

Seventh: Judas is the Disciple Jesus loved, not John.

The Gospel writers went to great length not to name the Disciple Jesus loved. As Peter and the Disciple Jesus loved ran to the Sepulchre in the Gospel of John, John refers to them as "THEM" and as "THEY" which would not be if it was himself.

(JOHN 13:23) Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. (KJV)
(JOHN 13:24) Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. (KJV)
(JOHN 13:25) He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? (KJV)
(JOHN 13:26) Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. (KJV)
(JOHN 13:27) And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. (KJV)
(JOHN 13:28) Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. (KJV)
(JOHN 13:29) For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. (KJV)

NOTE CLOSELY: No man at the Table knew, The Disciple Jesus loved knew why it was said, He saw who got the sop, But Judas was the Disciples, and Judas just left. Judas was the one on Christ's bosom.

Notice how John will go to great lengths not to name the Disciple Jeus loved, But will use words showing it is not Himself.

(JOHN 20:2) Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, """and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved,""" and saith unto (((them,))) They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. (KJV)
(JOHN 20:3) Peter therefore went forth, """and that other disciple,""" and came to the sepulchre. (KJV)
(JOHN 20:4) So (((they))) ran both together: """and the other disciple""" did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. (KJV)
(JOHN 20:5) And (((he))) stooping down, {and looking in}, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went (((he))) not in. (KJV)
(JOHN 20:6) Then cometh Simon Peter following (((him))), and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, (KJV)
(JOHN 20:7) And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. (KJV)
(JOHN 20:8) Then went in """also that other disciple,""" which came first to the sepulchre, and (((he))) saw, and believed. (KJV)
(JOHN 20:9) For as yet (((they))) knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. (KJV)
(JOHN 20:10) Then the disciples went away again unto (((their))) own home. (KJV)

Not We or me, but He and they and them. Judas is the Disciples Jesus loved. But his name is not what they want to use.

The Devil is God's Holy name, Judas is Michael the only one told to Daniel that aided Jesus in His coming to Daniel. Daniel is in corruption, and no breadth in him in the vision, a vision for when Jesus goes to the dead in the grave, a vision for the day of the cross.

The Battle is on the mount of Olives, Old Heaven ended at Midnight so there place was not found in heaven anymore.

There are MANY MANY more verses that support these concepts. I have listed many. Scriptural reproofs are seldom seen against these concepts. But GIVE IT YOUR BEST.

ken1burton

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Does anybody else besides me think the above post is a big heaping, stinking, pile of fecal matter ?

Please say so.

I don't think it even merits rebuttal, just exposure.

[ May 24, 2002, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Curtis ]

 

[AITB]

Hi Mr Curtis,

I don't happen to agree with Ken's interpretation of the Bible.

He leans so heavily on one verse...some verse about 'similitudes'; then he allegorizes the whole Bible until it fits what he believes.

He thinks everything is some metaphor relating to the day Jesus died.

I don't agree.

But I think he's sincere...I have to admit I wrote all this based on other posts of his that I've read. I didn't read the above one in detail.

At least you said that what you thought his post is, is your opinion