Thank you for the clarification. I agree that partial fulfillment and judgment upon the nation of Israel took place in 70CE. I do not see any support for Jesus physically returning and rapturing the saints at 70CE as some have asserted.
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Did the Lord return in AD 70?
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
Lodic
Well-Known Member
I don't believe in the Rapture at all. There are two Preterist views. I hold the Partial Preterist view, that all of the Olivet Discourse prophecies and most of Revelation have been fulfilled. Full Preterists believe all Biblical prophecies have been fulfilled.
I appreciate how we can discuss our views as Brothers in Christ, and not like some who insult those who they disagree with or whose views they don't understand.
37818
Well-Known Member
Then you deny 1 Thessalonians 4:17, ". . . we which are alive and remain shall be caught up . . . ."
Lodic
Well-Known Member
I deny the view of the Rapture. The idea of being caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air is a picture of God's Elect being brought into His presence in the Holy of Holies. "Descend" (v. 15) was used to describe the priest's descent from the Temple to announce that atonement had been completed.
[EDIT] The passages used to support the Rapture have more to do with our resurrection bodies. See also 1 Corinthians 15:50-57.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Lodic
Well-Known Member
What you posted was "Then you deny 1 Thessalonians 4:17 "...we which are alive and remain shall be caught up...". I do not deny Scripture. I deny your interpretation of that Scripture. To turn this around, I would not say that you deny this passage, but you deny my interpretation of that passage.
37818
Well-Known Member
I do not undstand your interpertation of that passage.
The answer to the question posed is a resounding "No!"
Acts of the Apostles 1:11. 'This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'
People saw Him go; people will see Him return.
He left in a physical body of 'flesh and bones' (Luke 24:39); He will return in a physical body.
Clouds gathered to obscure His departure; clouds will part to reveal His return.
'See, He is coming with the clouds; and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.' He will return on the Last Day, at the resurrection of the dead.
Acts of the Apostles 1:11. 'This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'
People saw Him go; people will see Him return.
He left in a physical body of 'flesh and bones' (Luke 24:39); He will return in a physical body.
Clouds gathered to obscure His departure; clouds will part to reveal His return.
'See, He is coming with the clouds; and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.' He will return on the Last Day, at the resurrection of the dead.
Jesus has NOT yet physically returned at all. He's Spiritually present whenever/wherever 2 or more are gathered in His name, which I believe, includes electronically.
You should look up the full meaning of the Greek word genea to see it's referring to the Jewish people, not just the body of people alive at that time.
Jesus tells us how He will return in Matt. 24:29-31 & Revelation 19:11-21. NOWHERE does He speak of more than one return !
ALL preterism is false ! I proved it to you in 2 previous threads. Not one pret has proven the veracity of any of their assertions, especially the return of Jesus.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
I don't believe in the Rapture because I don't see it in the Bible. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is used to support that view, but I disagree. This passage is not about the Rapture at all. “The Lord himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel, with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first” (v. 16). This is a resurrection, not the Rapture. The text says, “the dead in Christ will rise,” so we are talking here about a resurrection at the coming of the Lord. And then it says, “Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together” — there’s your rapture word, “caught up with him in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.”
What Paul is saying is that at the coming of the Lord, those who have fallen asleep will be resurrected, so they go from dead to alive in the resurrection. But those who have not died yet will also be resurrected in the sense that they get transformed without having died. Whether or not you agree, I hope I've explained my view of that passage so you see where I'm coming from.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Brother, you and I have been debating Preterism on and off for at least a couple of years. In every one of our discussions, you make the claim that you've proven Preterism is false. If you could prove this view to be false, it would have shut down this debate long ago. All you have ever done is state why you disagree with it.
Preterism is not about the end of the world, but the end of the Old Covenant system. The Olivet Discourse was fulfilled to the letter, bringing about the "death knell" of the Old Covenant. In Revelation, John uses a lot of symbolic language which describes the destruction of Jerusalem and the tribulation they would go through. This came to pass in AD 70. Now we are awaiting the 2nd Coming of Christ.
37818
Well-Known Member
Understand, if you do not already, those who believe the "rapture" is taught in the text point to the Greek translated as "shall be caught up," αρπαγησομεθα. The term "rapture" from the Latin for this, rapiemur.
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Sir, I showed you THRU SCRIPTURE, Jesus' own word, that the great trib will be worldwide & Jesus will return IMMEDIATELY AFTERWARDS, as He Himself said. The words of Jesus Himself are the bottom line. He did NOT return in 70 AD.
Where I will disagree with you is in Revelation. My agreement is that the Old Covenant ends at the cross and the judgment of Israel is at 70CE, but John isn't writing about Israel's tribulation. John is writing about the church and God's triumph over sin and death in this world. John is bringing encouragement to his readers that God is victorious over their tribulation and over our tribulation as a unified church. There is dual fulfillment as is often seen in the prophets. John is no exception in the prophecy God gives him.
To put Revelation as a prophetic book for Israel, the descendants of Jacob, is a misplacement of the book. John wrote for the church, the true Israel of God.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Yes, I am familiar with that, thank you. "Caught up" doesn't necessarily mean the same as in getting beamed up like in Star Trek. For example, you can get "caught up" in the excitement of an event. I understand why those who believe in the Rapture hold that view, but I honestly do not believe Scripture supports that view.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Brother, I have showed you that the tribulation was not worldwide, but was limited to Jerusalem and the surrounding area. This was fulfilled in a 3 1/2 year period, from AD 66-70.
I have also showed you that Jesus did come - just not physically. I agree that the words of Jesus Himself are the bottom line. He was not mistaken. He came in judgment upon Jerusalem, just as He said. Do not confuse this with the 2nd Coming, which is still in our future.
37818
Well-Known Member
OK. So there can be little or no mistake on my understandind here, which statement or statements of Jesus do you mean? Thank you.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
I believe that the majority of Revelation describes (in symbolic terms) the end of the Old Covenant. Revelation is John's version of the Olivet Discourse, where he describes the events that were going to come upon Jerusalem.
Having said that, I do agree that there is an aspect of Revelation that is about God's triumph over sin and death. This is indeed encouragement to John's readers, but this was especially important to his 1st century audience (especially the 7 churches) who would go through the Tribulation. While there are some cases of a dual fulfillment of prophecy, I don't think this is the case here. There are too many unique circumstances - e.g. the Abomination of Desolation, prophecies of the Beast & False Prophet, etc. I believe these were fulfilled between AD 66-70. There is no future Great Tribulation, but this is great encouragement as we go through our present tribulations. I am sure you disagree, but I'm okay with that if you are.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
The specific things that Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse that came to pass:
1) Destruction of the Temple; 2) False Christs; 3) Wars & Rumors of Wars; 4) His followers handed over to tribulation and killed; 5) Gospel preached throughout the world (i.e. the Roman Empire); 6) Abomination of Desolation; 7) Great Tribulation; 8) Political powers shaken. Basically, I've just been going through Matthew 24. Note that Jesus told His disciples "when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door".
I believe every one of those events came to pass during a 3 1/2 year period from AD 66-70.