Did the Lord return in AD 70?

[37818]

The specific things that Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse that came to pass:
1) Destruction of the Temple; 2) False Christs; 3) Wars & Rumors of Wars; 4) His followers handed over to tribulation and killed; 5) Gospel preached throughout the world (i.e. the Roman Empire); 6) Abomination of Desolation; 7) Great Tribulation; 8) Political powers shaken. Basically, I've just been going through Matthew 24. Note that Jesus told His disciples "when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door".

I believe every one of those events came to pass during a 3 1/2 year period from AD 66-70.

We have multiple issues with differences in our hermeneutics. Not simple. Thank you for answering. One of the issues is where to start? I believe there exists a common ground with the prophecy of the temple disruction of 70AD. But does not help resolve the other difficulties.

 

[robycop3]

Brother, I have showed you that the tribulation was not worldwide, but was limited to Jerusalem and the surrounding area. This was fulfilled in a 3 1/2 year period, from AD 66-70.

No, you only showed me your private interp of some Scriptures, while completely ignoring Rev.3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. And please, no pret jive talk that "the whole world" means anything but THAT.



I have also showed you that Jesus did come - just not physically. I agree that the words of Jesus Himself are the bottom line. He was not mistaken. He came in judgment upon Jerusalem, just as He said. Do not confuse this with the 2nd Coming, which is still in our future.[/QUOTE]
No, He didn't ! Jesus mentioned only ONE return-His physical one, yet to occur. But He caused the Romans to destroy J & the temple.

Please show us FROM SCRIPTURE where He mentions two returns or that He came upon J to destroy it.

 

[Lodic]

We have multiple issues with differences in our hermeneutics. Not simple. Thank you for answering. One of the issues is where to start? I believe there exists a common ground with the prophecy of the temple disruction of 70AD. But does not help resolve the other difficulties.

For me, a starting place is defining what we believe the prophecies are about overall. I believe they are restricted to judgment on Jerusalem and the end of the Old Covenant, whereas the popular view is that this refers to a future worldwide.

I focus on "time indicators" in the prophecies. We find phrases like "near", "at the door", "this generation", etc. in reference to these prophecies. I take them to literally mean it was near for the 1st Century audience. Another key for me has to do with how certain Greek words were translated. For instance, "oikumene" should refer to the civilized world (i.e. the Roman Empire), but is commonly taken to mean the entire earth. That would be "kosmos". There are other issues like this which guide my views.

 

[Lodic]

No, you only showed me your private interp of some Scriptures, while completely ignoring Rev.3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. And please, no pret jive talk that "the whole world" means anything but THAT.

I have also showed you that Jesus did come - just not physically. I agree that the words of Jesus Himself are the bottom line. He was not mistaken. He came in judgment upon Jerusalem, just as He said. Do not confuse this with the 2nd Coming, which is still in our future.

No, He didn't ! Jesus mentioned only ONE return-His physical one, yet to occur. But He caused the Romans to destroy J & the temple.

Please show us FROM SCRIPTURE where He mentions two returns or that He came upon J to destroy it.[/QUOTE]
Actually, you have showed your private interpretation of Scriptures while ignoring phrases like "soon", "near", "this generation", etc. throughout the New Testament. Yes, "oikumene" refers to the Roman Empire. It's the exact same word used in Luke 2:1.

There is only one "2nd Coming", but Jesus clearly said that His 1st Century audience would "see" (or "understand") His coming in judgment. This judgment came through the Roman army, Nero, etc.

 

[robycop3]

We have multiple issues with differences in our hermeneutics. Not simple. Thank you for answering. One of the issues is where to start? I believe there exists a common ground with the prophecy of the temple disruction of 70AD. But does not help resolve the other difficulties.

Jesus prophesied that destruction in Matt. 24:1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

And Daniel wrote of the destruction of Jerusalem-Daniel 9:26
“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined."

 

[37818]

For me, a starting place is defining what we believe the prophecies are about overall. I believe they are restricted to judgment on Jerusalem and the end of the Old Covenant, whereas the popular view is that this refers to a future worldwide.

I focus on "time indicators" in the prophecies. We find phrases like "near", "at the door", "this generation", etc. in reference to these prophecies. I take them to literally mean it was near for the 1st Century audience. Another key for me has to do with how certain Greek words were translated. For instance, "oikumene" should refer to the civilized world (i.e. the Roman Empire), but is what commonly taken to mean the entire earth. That would be "kosmos". There are other issues like this which guide my views.

Well, the Old Covenant ended when Jesus declared what He had already completed on the cross. John 19:28-30, Mark 15:36-38.

 

[robycop3]

For me, a starting place is defining what we believe the prophecies are about overall. I believe they are restricted to judgment on Jerusalem and the end of the Old Covenant, whereas the popular view is that this refers to a future worldwide.

Despite His saying "the whole world"?

I focus on "time indicators" in the prophecies. We find phrases like "near", "at the door", "this generation", etc. in reference to these prophecies. I take them to literally mean it was near for the 1st Century audience. Another key for me has to do with how certain Greek words were translated. For instance, "oikumene" should refer to the civilized world (i.e. the Roman Empire), but is commonly taken to mean the entire earth. That would be "kosmos". There are other issues like this which guide my views.

The time indicators are of no use when the events haven't happened. As for okumene, parts of China, Japan, Africa, & the Americas were civilized as well. Remember, Jesus created those people as well as the Israelis & Romans.

 

[robycop3]

Well, the Old Covenant ended when Jesus declared what He had already completed on the cross. John 19:28-30, Mark 15:36-38.

Yes, He declared it at "the last supper" & sealed it with His death.

 

[Lodic]

Well, the Old Covenant ended when Jesus declared what He had already completed on the cross. John 19:28-30, Mark 15:36-38.

Jesus conquered sin and death on the Cross. The Old Covenant was obviously still in effect in that sacrifices were still offered in the Temple until its destruction in AD 70. The Cross marked the beginning of the end, but the destruction of the Temple was the final "nail in the coffin" for the Old Covenant.

 

[Lodic]

Despite His saying "the whole world"?

From the Greek "oikumene", meaning the inhabited earth. The Gospel was preached to the "inhabited earth" (throughout the Roman Empire). In Romans 1:8, Paul says that the Gospel is being "proclaimed throughout the whole world". In Colossians 1:3-6, Paul says that the Gospel been preached "in all the world". Colossians 1:23 says that the Gospel was "proclaimed in all creation under Heaven". I could provide some more examples, but this is enough to make my point.

The time indicators are of no use when the events haven't happened. As for okumene, parts of China, Japan, Africa, & the Americas were civilized as well. Remember, Jesus created those people as well as the Israelis & Romans.

The value of the time indicators is just that - they do indicate when those events were to happen. Oddly enough, Preterists are often criticized as "not taking the Bible literally". Yet, here you are not taking the Bible literally.

Of course other lands were civilized during the same time period. Did Caesar Augustus call for a census of China, Africa, etc.? Of course not. The context makes it clear that he called for a census of the Roman Empire. The exact same word (oikumene) is used throughout the New Testament. When you compare Scripture with Scripture, and when you study how the words and phrases are used, you see what the author intended to say instead of what you want the passage (or word) to mean.

 

[37818]

Yes, He declared it at "the last supper" & sealed it with His death.

Huh?

Jesus conquered sin and death on the Cross. The Old Covenant was obviously still in effect in that sacrifices were still offered in the Temple until its destruction in AD 70. The Cross marked the beginning of the end, but the destruction of the Temple was the final "nail in the coffin" for the Old Covenant.

The purpose of the destruction of the physical Temple and Jersalem was to show that the Messiah had been cut off, Danel 9:26, ". . . Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; . . ."

 

[robycop3]

Jesus conquered sin and death on the Cross. The Old Covenant was obviously still in effect in that sacrifices were still offered in the Temple until its destruction in AD 70. The Cross marked the beginning of the end, but the destruction of the Temple was the final "nail in the coffin" for the Old Covenant.

Jremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord."
When did He make that covenant ?
Matt.26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

[Lodic]

The purpose of the destruction of the physical Temple and Jersalem was to show that the Messiah had been cut off, Danel 9:26, ". . . Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; . . ."

The purpose of the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem was judgment on Israel for rejecting the Messiah. Rejecting Jesus and asking for a murderer to be set free were what determined their destruction.

 

[Lodic]

Jremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord."
When did He make that covenant ?
Matt.26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

I completely agree. However, the old covenant was still being practiced until the temple was destroyed.

 

[37818]

The purpose of the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem was judgment on Israel for rejecting the Messiah. Rejecting Jesus and asking for a murderer to be set free were what determined their destruction.

Where does a text teach that?

 

[Lodic]

Where does a text teach that?

To "back up the truck", I believe the "prince who is to come" of Daniel 9:26 was the Roman General Titus. We know Titus destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem. Then verse 27 says "He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week He will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering". I believe the "He" is Christ (thus the capitalization); He put an end to the sacrifices by becoming a sacrifice Himself. It stands to reason that judgment on Israel for continuing with their sacrifices and rejecting the Messiah is why He destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple.

Having said that, where does a text teach that purpose of the destruction of the physical Temple and Jerusalem was to show that the Messiah had been cut off? Messiah was cut off about 30 years earlier, at the Cross.

 

[37818]

Messiah was cut off about 30 years earlier, at the Cross.

About 40 years earlier.

 

[kyredneck]

Where does a text teach that?

When Christ commissioned the twelve apostles He foretold them:
But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you; yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. Mt 10:17-20

In the Olivet Discourse He foretold them:
But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and shall persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name`s sake. It shall turn out unto you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer: for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to withstand or to gainsay. Lk 21:12-15

In the Farewell Discourse He foretold them:
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God.....And he, when he [the Comforter] is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more; of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged. Jn 16:2, 8-11

The 'Comforter' made His appearance at Pentecost. Observe how the Spirit convicts the apostate ecclesiastical system (the arrangement) of the Jews, through the testimony of His witnesses, of the murder of the Righteous One, and declare Him indeed to be righteous. Take note, in all these examples given, of the redundancy of the message from the Comforter to the Jews; YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Acts 2:
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

 

[kyredneck]

Where does a text teach that?

The Comforter convicts 'the world' through the mouths of His witnesses: YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Acts 3:
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this man? or why fasten ye your eyes on us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

 

[kyredneck]

Where does a text teach that?

The Comforter convicts 'the world' through the mouths of His witnesses: YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Acts 4:
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders,
9 if we this day are examined concerning a good deed done to an impotent man, by what means this man is made whole;
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.