Did the Lord return in AD 70?

[kyredneck]

Where does a text teach that?

The Comforter convicts 'the world' through the mouths of His witnesses: YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Acts 5:
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
28 saying, We strictly charged you not to teach in this name: and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us.
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree.
31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

 

[kyredneck]

Where does a text teach that?

The Comforter convicts 'the world' through the mouths of His witnesses: YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Acts 6:
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.
9 But there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen.
10 And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake.
15 And all that sat in the council, fastening their eyes on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.
Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers;
53 ye who received the law as it was ordained by angels, and kept it not.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.

 

[kyredneck]

Where does a text teach that?

The Comforter convicts 'the world' through the mouths of His witnesses: YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Acts 10:
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.
40 Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest,
41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.

 

[kyredneck]

Where does a text teach that?

Acts 13:
16 And Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken:
27 For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people.

 

[37818]

Rejecting Jesus and asking for a murderer to be set free were what determined their destruction.

Which is contrary to 1 Corinthians 2:7-8, ". . . But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. . . ."

[Which is the reason behind my question,

Where does a text teach that?

]

 

[kyredneck]

Which is contrary to 1 Corinthians 2:7-8,

...only in your contrary mind. You continually pit scripture against scripture.

 

[Piper]

Jesus used language in Matthew 24 that Paul uses in 2 Thess. Very similar language, which seems to indicate that they are talking about the same thing. And the man of lawlessness has not come yet, so in my interpretation, it is in the future. He did not come in 70 AD. There will be a book out in January by my friend, Pastor John, on this topic.

 

[Lodic]

About 40 years earlier.

Oops. Thank you for that correction.

 

[Lodic]

Which is contrary to 1 Corinthians 2:7-8, ". . . But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. . . ."

[Which is the reason behind my question, ]

@kyredneck answered this question very thoroughly in posts # 58-64. (Thanks, Brother.)

I don't understand how you think 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 contradicts the view that "the purpose of the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem was judgment on Israel for rejecting the Messiah." That basically just says "if they had known what they were doing, they would not have done it". That has nothing to do with the judgment on Jerusalem. I probably won't agree with you, but I would like to see where you are coming from.

 

[Lodic]

Jesus used language in Matthew 24 that Paul uses in 2 Thess. Very similar language, which seems to indicate that they are talking about the same thing. And the man of lawlessness has not come yet, so in my interpretation, it is in the future. He did not come in 70 AD. There will be a book out in January by my friend, Pastor John, on this topic.

Jesus did not physically come in AD 70, but He did "come" in judgment just as God "came" in judgment on various nations in the Old Testament. See Micah 1:1-7 and Isaiah 19:1 as a couple of examples.

I agree that 2 Thessalonians (especially chapter 2) uses similar language to that of the Olivet Discourse, and they cover much of the same thing. However, in my interpretation, the man of lawlessness was most likely either the High Priest Phannias, John of Gischala, or someone else that Paul and the Thessalonians knew. Since Paul wrote this around AD 52, Emperor Claudius may have been the "Restrainer". The 1st Century Christians saw the Day of the Lord as an event that was about to happen, so they clearly did not view it as a literal world-destroying event.

Just for a different view, I recommend "Last Days Madness" by Gary DeMar. He had a lot of thought-provoking articles at Home - The American Vision.

 

[37818]

@kyredneck answered this question very thoroughly in posts # 58-64. (Thanks, Brother.)

I don't understand how you think 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 contradicts the view that "the purpose of the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem was judgment on Israel for rejecting the Messiah." That basically just says "if they had known what they were doing, they would not have done it". That has nothing to do with the judgment on Jerusalem. I probably won't agree with you, but I would like to see where you are coming from.

Remember Matthew 16:21-23, ". . . Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, . . ." It is this same issue with 1 Corinthians 2:8.

 

[37818]

Jesus did not physically come in AD 70, but . . . .

So in my mind this doesn't include Matthew 24:29-31, ". . . and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven . . . ." Per Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11, ". . . a cloud received him out of their sight. . . . this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. . . ."

 

[Lodic]

Remember Matthew 16:21-23, ". . . Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, . . ." It is this same issue with 1 Corinthians 2:8.

That just tells us those events were foreordained to come to pass. The reason for judgment on Jerusalem was still for rejecting Christ and having Him crucified.

So in my mind this doesn't include Matthew 24:29-31, ". . . and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven . . . ." Per Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11, ". . . a cloud received him out of their sight. . . . this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. . . ."

In the Acts account, the crowd literally watched Jesus ascending into the cloud. In the Matthew account, when Jesus said they shall see the Son of man coming, it could also be taken to mean "understand" that Christ had come in judgment. Some accounts say that He actually appeared in the clouds. Matthew 24:30 starts off with "the sign of the Son of man shall appear", which is not the same as Christ actually appearing in the clouds. In any case, He "came" in judgment just as God "came" in judgment in Micah 1:1-7, Isaiah 19:1, and other places. This is not to be confused with the 2nd Coming, which is still in our future.

 

[37818]

. . . and having Him crucified.

That to me makes no sense.
Without the the crucfixion there would not be Isaiah 53:1-12. And makes Jesus' words a lie, "Father forgive them . . . ." How would it not? So what is the one quote that Jesus being crucified is to bring Judgement against Jerusalem? I hear the claim, but no Scripture.

 

[Piper]

Jesus did not physically come in AD 70, but He did "come" in judgment just as God "came" in judgment on various nations in the Old Testament. See Micah 1:1-7 and Isaiah 19:1 as a couple of examples.

I agree that 2 Thessalonians (especially chapter 2) uses similar language to that of the Olivet Discourse, and they cover much of the same thing. However, in my interpretation, the man of lawlessness was most likely either the High Priest Phannias, John of Gischala, or someone else that Paul and the Thessalonians knew. Since Paul wrote this around AD 52, Emperor Claudius may have been the "Restrainer". The 1st Century Christians saw the Day of the Lord as an event that was about to happen, so they clearly did not view it as a literal world-destroying event.

Just for a different view, I recommend "Last Days Madness" by Gary DeMar. He had a lot of thought-provoking articles at Home - The American Vision.

I have read Gary Demar. I am very familiar with him. One of my close friends was his partner for several years, so I read a lot of his ideas, but disagree with them. I am pre-millennial.

 

[Lodic]

That to me makes no sense.
Without the the crucfixion there would not be Isaiah 53:1-12. And makes Jesus' words a lie, "Father forgive them . . . ." How would it not? So what is the one quote that Jesus being crucified is to bring Judgement against Jerusalem? I hear the claim, but no Scripture.

I thought @kyredneck provided plenty of Scriptures that showed the rejection of Christ as the primary reason for judgment against Judah. I will add Matthew 23:37-38, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!" This was a clear pronouncement of judgment.

Jesus was asking the Father to forgive the individual people, not to forgive Judah and Jerusalem as a corporate entity.

 

[Lodic]

I have read Gary Demar. I am very familiar with him. One of my close friends was his partner for several years, so I read a lot of his ideas, but disagree with them. I am pre-millennial.

Fair enough. At least you have read his works, so you have a good basis for your disagreement.

 

[kyredneck]

I thought @kyredneck provided plenty of Scriptures that showed the rejection of Christ as the primary reason for judgment against Judah. I will add Matthew 23:37-38,

Back up a couple more verses:

35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth....

'That generation' was guilty of shedding the most righteous blood there ever was. Compare with:

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18

 

[robycop3]

From the Greek "oikumene", meaning the inhabited earth. The Gospel was preached to the "inhabited earth" (throughout the Roman Empire). In Romans 1:8, Paul says that the Gospel is being "proclaimed throughout the whole world". In Colossians 1:3-6, Paul says that the Gospel been preached "in all the world". Colossians 1:23 says that the Gospel was "proclaimed in all creation under Heaven". I could provide some more examples, but this is enough to make my point.

Could you please show us when and who preached the Gospel in China, Japan, Australia, the Americas, etc. in Paul's time ?

The value of the time indicators is just that - they do indicate when those events were to happen. Oddly enough, Preterists are often criticized as "not taking the Bible literally". Yet, here you are not taking the Bible literally.

Prets misinterpret those 'time indicators", the proof being those events haven't yet occurred.

Of course other lands were civilized during the same time period. Did Caesar Augustus call for a census of China, Africa, etc.? Of course not. The context makes it clear that he called for a census of the Roman Empire. The exact same word (oikumene) is used throughout the New Testament. When you compare Scripture with Scripture, and when you study how the words and phrases are used, you see what the author intended to say instead of what you want the passage (or word) to mean.

Caesar wasn't interested in lands outside his empire, but JESUS CHRIST is. When HE said "all the world", He meant JUST THAT !

 

[robycop3]

Huh?

Just read the Scriptural accounts of the "Last Supper".

The purpose of the destruction of the physical Temple and Jersalem was to show that the Messiah had been cut off, Danel 9:26, ". . . Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; . . ."

I agee.