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Did the Virgin mary REALLY Appear At fatima?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
convicted1
Guest
What say you?
convicted1
Guest
Only the three children saw the BVM. The miracle witnessed by 70,000 people was the spinning and dancing of the sun. It happened on October 13, 1917, about noon. It had been raining hard all morning and the ground was soaked as were the people's clothing. When the sun stopped its gyrations, both the ground and the people's clothing were completely dry. This phenomenon is well documented by secular sources in much the same way as the mysterious explosion over Siberia in 1908.
As for the children, when they were interviewed after the first couple of appearances to them by the BVM, they had knowledge of theological principles held only by well educated adults.
As for the children, when they were interviewed after the first couple of appearances to them by the BVM, they had knowledge of theological principles held only by well educated adults.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Those three did not see the mother of Jesus. They saw a demonic apparition that called itself Mary.
If one examines the stories of those three, one will find that the apparition sought worship and adoration for herself, making promises that if she were worshiped, adored and prayed to she would keep people from hell and deliver them from purgatory.
The only thing that will keep a person from hell is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. One can call on Mary from now until the end of time and it will do no good whatsoever. There is only one mediator between God and man... the Lord Jesus Christ.
If one examines the stories of those three, one will find that the apparition sought worship and adoration for herself, making promises that if she were worshiped, adored and prayed to she would keep people from hell and deliver them from purgatory.
The only thing that will keep a person from hell is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. One can call on Mary from now until the end of time and it will do no good whatsoever. There is only one mediator between God and man... the Lord Jesus Christ.
Among other things the lady taught the children was a prayer which has come to be known as the Fatima Prayer. It is usually recited following each decade of the rosary: "Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of Hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy."
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The Virgin Mary has appeared to no one! The so-called multitude of appearances by Mary is just part of the effort by some of the RCC to deify Mary!
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Cardinal O'connor Backs 'Holy Quartet'
BY FRANK LOMBARDI
Tuesday, August 19, 1997
Cardinal O'Connor has given tacit support to a controversial movement within the Catholic Church to elevate the Virgin Mary to equal status with Jesus Christ as the Redeemer for mankind's salvation.
The proposed new dogma would expand the concept of the Holy Trinity, the guiding precept of the Catholic faith that there is one God in three "persons" the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
As described in the cover story in the current Newsweek, "there would be a kind of Holy Quartet, with Mary playing the multiple roles of daughter of the Father, mother of the Son and spouse of the Holy Spirit."
http://articles.nydailynews.com/1997-08-19/news/18048210_1_virgin-mary-cardinal-o-connor-papal
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1964-NOV-21: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II, and "Solemnly promulgated by Holiness Pope Paul VI" states, in part:
"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death"
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix."
"...the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator."
"For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source." (Footnotes deleted)
1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son."
1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs."
Petition drive to promote an infallible statement:
Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." 3 Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:
1. Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.
2. Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.
3. Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/mary_cor.htm
*************************************************************************
Cardinal O'connor Backs 'Holy Quartet'
BY FRANK LOMBARDI
Tuesday, August 19, 1997
Cardinal O'Connor has given tacit support to a controversial movement within the Catholic Church to elevate the Virgin Mary to equal status with Jesus Christ as the Redeemer for mankind's salvation.
The proposed new dogma would expand the concept of the Holy Trinity, the guiding precept of the Catholic faith that there is one God in three "persons" the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
As described in the cover story in the current Newsweek, "there would be a kind of Holy Quartet, with Mary playing the multiple roles of daughter of the Father, mother of the Son and spouse of the Holy Spirit."
http://articles.nydailynews.com/1997-08-19/news/18048210_1_virgin-mary-cardinal-o-connor-papal
************************************************************************
1964-NOV-21: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II, and "Solemnly promulgated by Holiness Pope Paul VI" states, in part:
"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death"
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix."
"...the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator."
"For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source." (Footnotes deleted)
1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son."
1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs."
Petition drive to promote an infallible statement:
Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." 3 Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:
1. Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.
2. Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.
3. Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/mary_cor.htm
3. Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.
So in your mind God is an old weak grandfather that is reclining on his death-bed and can easily be bossed around by his own creation, that being Mary. She influences his judgments; she directs his will, etc. Your God is weak; your Mary is strong.
You can call that Christianity? I call it a strange religion, foreign to the Christianity that the Bible teaches.
Talk about Mary worship. Good grief.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Scripture teaches:
1 Timothy 2:5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Yet tradition and the teaching magisterium of the RCC teaches:
There can be no doubt that the above three statements about Mary constitute gross heresy. But as I have noted earlier "tradition and the teaching magisterium" of the RCC trumps Scripture.
*****************************************************
One message above all that is taught in Scripture is the holiness, the transcendence of God. Yet the RCC has reduced God to a caricature of Scriptural revelation. Philip Schaff was prophetic when he wrote:
Volume 2, page 73:
With Constantine, therefore, the last of the heathen, the first of the Christian, emperors, a new period begins. The church ascends the throne of the Caesars under the banner of the once despised, now honored and triumphant cross, and gives new vigor and lustre to the hoary empire of Rome.[emphasis added]
Schaff further writes Volume 3, page 12:
Constantine, the first Christian Caesar, the founder of Constantinople and the Byzantine empire, and one of the most gifted, energetic, and successful of the Roman emperors, was the first representative of the imposing idea of a Christian theocracy, or of that system of policy which assumes all subjects to be Christians, connects civil and religious rights, and regards church and state as the two arms of one and the same divine government on earth. This idea was more fully developed by his successors, it animated the whole middle age, and is yet working under various forms in these latest times; though it has never been fully realized, whether in the Byzantine, the German, or the Russian empire, the Roman church-state the Calvinistic republic of Geneva, or the early Puritanic colonies of New England. At the same time, however, Constantine stands also as the type of an undiscriminating and harmful conjunction of Christianity with politics, of the holy symbol of peace with the horrors of war, of the spiritual interests of the kingdom of heaven with the earthly interests of the state.
**************************************************************
With the elevation and worship of Mary the RCC reduces the Triune God of Scripture to one like the demigods of Pagan Rome! :tear::tear:
1 Timothy 2:5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Yet tradition and the teaching magisterium of the RCC teaches:
There can be no doubt that the above three statements about Mary constitute gross heresy. But as I have noted earlier "tradition and the teaching magisterium" of the RCC trumps Scripture.
*****************************************************
One message above all that is taught in Scripture is the holiness, the transcendence of God. Yet the RCC has reduced God to a caricature of Scriptural revelation. Philip Schaff was prophetic when he wrote:
Volume 2, page 73:
With Constantine, therefore, the last of the heathen, the first of the Christian, emperors, a new period begins. The church ascends the throne of the Caesars under the banner of the once despised, now honored and triumphant cross, and gives new vigor and lustre to the hoary empire of Rome.[emphasis added]
Schaff further writes Volume 3, page 12:
Constantine, the first Christian Caesar, the founder of Constantinople and the Byzantine empire, and one of the most gifted, energetic, and successful of the Roman emperors, was the first representative of the imposing idea of a Christian theocracy, or of that system of policy which assumes all subjects to be Christians, connects civil and religious rights, and regards church and state as the two arms of one and the same divine government on earth. This idea was more fully developed by his successors, it animated the whole middle age, and is yet working under various forms in these latest times; though it has never been fully realized, whether in the Byzantine, the German, or the Russian empire, the Roman church-state the Calvinistic republic of Geneva, or the early Puritanic colonies of New England. At the same time, however, Constantine stands also as the type of an undiscriminating and harmful conjunction of Christianity with politics, of the holy symbol of peace with the horrors of war, of the spiritual interests of the kingdom of heaven with the earthly interests of the state.
**************************************************************
With the elevation and worship of Mary the RCC reduces the Triune God of Scripture to one like the demigods of Pagan Rome! :tear::tear:
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
co-redemptrix is not a dogmatic catholic stance.
However, when we see pastor's preaching strike the hearts of people into believing we say they are co-workers with God. Not that they are God or died for any one or paid for anyone else sins but because they allowed themselves to be used in conjunction with God's plan. That is exactly how the term Co-redemptrix is to be understood. And just like I pray for other people I mediate for them but that doesn't make me the person who positionaly the one mediator between God and man. But it doesn't mean I don't mediate for them either. In this same sence mediatrix is to be understood. We believe Mary prays for us.
Do you believe that your great great grandpa does that too.
They are both dead. They are unable to do such things.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have heard all that nonsense before but that is not what pope John Paul said:
1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son."
You can call the sky green but that doesn't mean it is.
A pastor is a servant of God. In no way would he ever elevate himself to the blasphemous title of co-redemptrix or co-redemptor. Christ is King of kings; Lord of lords; Creator, Master. And we are his subjects.
You have made Mary a god.
No, it isn't. It isn't in Catholic literature. It isn't in Catholic prayers.
There is only one that can redeem, and that is Christ. No one can share in that action, that sacrifice. To make Mary an equal in redemption is blasphemous.
God's plan for Mary is that she remain dead and buried in the grave, waiting for the resurrection like everyone else. She has need of patience. She is dead. Why would you even think of praying to the dead. The dead cannot redeem; cannot save; cannot answer prayer; hear not.
1. No you do not mediate for anyone unless you are an earthly mediator mediating between a union and and the employer. No man can mediate between believers and God. Only Christ can do that. He is man's only Intercessor. You cannot do that.
2. You are alive; Mary is dead.
3. You can pray for others; that is not mediating. Mary cannot even do that; she is dead.
What you believe is of no consequence. Believe that the moon is made of green cheese. Some people do. That belief is on par with yours. It has no basis in fact. It is not Biblical. It is a man-made myth perpetuated by the RCC. Mary is dead.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_the_moon_made_of_cheese
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The souls of those who have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ go immediately into the presence of God. No stop over in a non existent purgatory. Neither will they have to get the approval of Mary to enter heaven!
St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."
From: http://www.religioustolerance.org/mary_cor.htm
As I understand it the soul is the seat of the affections, the mind.
The spirit is that which communicates with God.
However sometimes the two are interchangeable, and at death the two are united in one. I am not dogmatic on that position.
What we do know for sure is that the spirit goes to heaven (or hell). Man is a spirit-being, clothed in a mortal body. At death he sheds this temporary body and his spirit will either go to heaven or hell. The angels are spirit beings. They have no bodies. As such we will be like the angels (somewhat) until the resurrection takes place.
The fact is, a spirit in heaven is not omniscient, and probably has no knowledge of what is going on in this world. The Bible says that "I am a strait betwixt two. Whether it is better to remain and be with you, or to depart and be with the Lord."
Paul was speaking of his spirit.
He was going to face death soon. His body would be destroyed.
The RCC mysteriously and superstitiously thinks that the spirits in heaven are omniscient, can see everything on earth and know all that is happen. Only God has that ability. Man does not. Not even the angels have such abilities. The Bible says about the angels that they desire to look into our salvation. They don't understand our redemption. What makes you think that spirits in heaven know about our affairs on earth. If they did, would they be happy? No. Of course not.