Did you know that Luther rejected Revelation?

[Scarlett O.]

xdx,

Thank you for clarifying what you meant.

I believe that Paul and James are talking about the flip sides of the same coin.

Paul says that you cannot be saved through works. He's right. Justification is through faith alone.

James says that you cannot show that you are saved without them. He is also right. Saving faith is not alone....saving faith is accompanied by christians serving their God.

Paul says that we must believe that Jesus is the Resurrected Lord and confess that fact to be saved. This is different from the demons' belief. Theirs is an intellectual belief. They believe He is real and they tremble because of it, but they do not have a saving believe in Jesus as the Resurrected Messiah.

James says that you cannot go around saying, "well, I am justified through faith alone, so I don't have to get involved in works.....I don't have to help the poor or feed the hungry or counsel the downtrodden...I'm saved. That's all that matters in this old world."

He said that that kind of faith is a dead faith.....a useless faith.

Here's a link to a wonderful chart comparing Paul and James and looking with great scrutiny at just exactly what they did say about faith and works. Please read it for your own peace of mind.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/JamesPau.htm

 

[J. Jump]

Well Scarlett I had responded to this when I got the ole the server is busy response and lost my post

However, I just wanted to comment that you like many other Christians have missed James' intent altogether. You are taking an apple and an orange and trying to make a appange instead of enjoying the apple for all its truth and the orange for all it's truth.

Saying that one has to "prove" their faith is just a backdoor way of saying that salvation is based on what we do and not what Christ does on our behalf.

What you say is that if someone doesn't produce good fruit then they were never saved. That is saying that salvation is based on them not Christ.

Scripture never says that our eternal salvation is based on what we have done in the past nor is it based on what we do in the future. It is ONLY based on what Christ has done on our behalf.

James is talking about something completely different than eternal salvation.

James said faith without works is dead. What he is saying is God has told us that in order for us to be sanctified we must cooperate with the Holy Spirit. And if we do that we will rule and reign with Christ in His coming kingdom and we will be part of the bride of Christ. But in order to do this we must obey His commands and walk by the Spirit, die to self, take up our cross, etc. etc.

What James is saying is that I can believe that to be true. I can believe that I must obey the commands and walk by the Spirit and all the other things a believer has to do and I can believe that if I do those things I will rule and reign with Christ and I will be a part of the bride.

However, if all I do is believe and take no action to actually die to self, take up my cross daily, walk in the Spirit, obey His commandments, etc. then what I believe is dead. It's useless. It's of no value. I can believe that truth all I want, but until it pushes me to obey the gospel then my faith will not save me.

That is the message of James and is the only Scriptural way that it can fit with other Scripture. Otherwise you have a complete contradiction in Scripture.

 

[LeBuick]

Rom 10:9
These verses sound like all you have to do is believe and then you're saved.From reading them you get the impression that all you have to do is believe and then everything is fine.

Jam 2:17
But from these verses you get the impression that works are also very important to stay saved because Satan also believes. 2 totally different statements in my opinion. Sure, you can come up with explanations and make them fit to each other but just because you are able to find an explanation for something doesn't mean it's right. Let's say James really is not canonical then all christians are being misled in trying to somehow make James agree with Romans. Even if we had a book in the bible which did not fit to the rest of the bible at all I bet that some theologians would find ways to make it fit to the rest.

The other posters are right, Paul is telling how to be saved and James is helping us see salvation at work. James doesn't say you must work to be saved, he is saying you work because you are saved. Show him a person with not works then he can show you a person who is not saved.

 

[Eliyahu]

Comparison between Paul and James can be thought about when we read Mt 25:31-46 and Mt 7:16-22. The faith must be proven by the behaviors (works).
If anyone's faith is not proven by the act, that person may be "goats" yet as in Mt 25:31-46. There must be a starting point of the changed life.

Many things taught by Reformers may have problems.
Calvin claimed infant baptism, clergy system, Predestination, etc., Luther discredited parts of Bible, Consubstantiation, Anti-semitic, etc.
But we must understand their difficulties at that time as they could not depart from Roman Catholic very much, but they contributed to the Christianity in their own way since Luther's declaration provided a big momentum to the Protestants, while I see much more problem with Calvin than with Luther.
So, Reformers should be viewed from the angle of the people at that time.
We are so rich and live a life convenient to judge other believers in the past of the difficult times.

 

[xdisciplex]

But this makes no sense!
Every christian who reads James will keep in mind "I have to do good works otherwise I am not saved" and then this will cause an automatism. As soon as you have read James you are no longer free in your decision to do good works! Because you know now that you HAVE TO do good works to be saved.
Does this mean that if I think "I don't want to feed to poor today, I'm too lazy" that I'm not saved? Great.
And this means that everbody who is actually too lazy and would rather not do anything might choose to do something but ONLY because he is scared of going to hell. Do you not see this? It's absolutely clear. There is no freedom of choice. As soon as you know you have to do works because otherwise this shows you're not saved you will automatically do good works because if you didn't then you weren't saved. But what if you're doing good works out of fear and still aren't saved? lol, this is so great.
I'm really starting to get so fed up with this whole stuff, why am I even wasting my time with all this stuff? Thinking about this is so senseless and then always being scared of going to hell I'm sick of it!

 

[Dustin]

Amen LeBuick!

 

[J. Jump]

The faith must be proven by the behaviors (works).

Folks that is salvation by works. It doesn't matter how you dress it up and how much you try to dance around the issue this is salvation by works.

If your works enter the picture of eternal salvation at all it is no longer grace, but wages.

When is the last time someone gave you a gift and then demanded that you prove the gift was given to you. It's not something you can prove.

If as I am sitting at my computer typing this message and my wife comes up and gives me a kiss just because she is gifting me with her kiss there is no way that I can prove to you that she kissed me.

It's the same with salvation. It is a gift from God that is received by the person, but He never demands they prove receipt of the gift, nor is there any way you can really prove it anyway.

If I go out and give a $1,000 to my church and I volunteer every month at the homeless shelter and I five all my old clothes to children's shelters or homeless shelters and I give my old cell phones to women's shelters and I teach Sunday School and ____________ fill in the blank.

Those are all good works, but how do you know that I am actually saved? Everyone of those works can be faked by unsaved individuals. The point is good works can be faked and masked so that isn't a way to tell whether someone is saved or not. Works are a matter of the heart and only God can know the heart.

I know a man that pastored a church for several years and then one day he knew he wasn't even saved. Yet all his works said he was.

We have go to get away from this idea that Christians have to prove anything. God does not require it of us. All He requires for eternal salvation is death and shed blood. And that has been accomplished through the works of the One and Only Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.

Anything outside of death and shed blood is outside of the Biblical picture of eternal salvation.

 

[xdisciplex]

Oh boy, this is so ridiculous. J.Jump is totally right. It's so funny how christians try to dance around the bush and try to find expressions which don't sound like salvation through works but actually mean the same thing.
If I need to do good works to be saved then it is salvation by works!
And it doesn't matter how you twist and turn it. It doesn't matter if you say you need works to prove that your faith is real if you need works as an essential part then it's salvation through works.

And what about catholics? They do plenty of good works, they are obsessed with works. Does this mean they are automatically saved? No!

It's so funny. Basically you can never know if you are saved or not! If you lack the works people will say: You're not a real christians.
If you have the works people might say: You're focused on works! You're a heretic!

I don't know shall I laugh or cry?

 

[Mel Miller]

Reject Revelation?

xdisciplex,

I am disappointed in your approach to scripture.

You seem to be so critical that your heart is not open to change of view.

I detected this in your OP and last post:

First and last posted Quotes:
_____________________________________________________________
When you're ignorant about all these things then believing is much easier.
Basically you can never know if you are saved or not!
_____________________________________________________________

These statements reveal a shallow mindset OR a lack of submission.
It ignores the promise of the Book of Revelation, at its beginning and at its ending, that those who read and heed its messages will be "blessed".

Humility of mind is requisite for understanding the Word of Truth.
But, IMO, your false (assumed) humility reveals a certain absence of faith
as well as submission to God's Holy Word.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[xdisciplex]

Mel, you've read 2 of my posts and you think you know me and are able to judge me? This is really funny...
You don't know anything about me. Even if you had read all my posts here you still wouldn't know me and be able to understand me.

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

Mel, you've read 2 of my posts and you think you know me and are able to judge me? This is really funny...
You don't know anything about me. Even if you had read all my posts here you still wouldn't know me and be able to understand me.

You know that I've read more than two of your posts. Perhaps Mel sees from two what I've seen -- you are searching. Not for what you are posting, though.

Therefore, we pray for your enlightenment. That you will find the peace that is so missing in your posts. That your life will come to relfect God's will. That your talent will be used to further His will in those who come in contact with you.

There are many people praying that you will open your mind, your heart and your Bible. That you will study and understand why we do pray for you. May God bless you and those who come in contact with you.

 

[xdisciplex]

you are searching. Not for what you are posting, though.

I am searching? Oh really?
That is funny because obviously you know more than me, but I guess if you say I am searching then it must be right.....

 

[El_Guero]

x

I have read your posts on several threads.

IMHO, you have been shook up over this death you spoke about and continuing spiritual issues.

IMHO - you need to find a good Bible believing church. You need to start fellowshiping (in person and not just on a computer) with real people of faith.

God bless

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

I am searching? Oh really?
That is funny because obviously you know more than me, but I guess if you say I am searching then it must be right.....

Your sarcasm comes through loud and clear.

However, each of the threads you begin are full of questions. If you are not searching for answers, why are you posting questions?

No need to respond. You and I both know the answer to the rhetorical question. Prayers are continuing for the well being of your eternal soul.

 

[xdisciplex]

@ el

It's really not so much about this one case. I simply didn't understand why this happened. I also don't know if suicide really leads to hell. People are so quick judging people which commit suicide as if they had a free choice but what if a person is so exhausted and her view has become so narrow that she doesn't see any hope? I do not think that suicide is free at all. Somebody who has all kind of options wouldn't kill himself. I think people which commit suicide have such a narrow view because of their problems that they see no other hope, otherwise they wouldn't kill themselves. For example somebody who failed at the final exams and now stands there with nothing at all, his view is totally narrow because he only looks at this problem and doesn't see any solution for this and in such a situation you don't think that life is so precious and that you could still do so many other things. In such a situation you don't think like that, you're totally focused on your problem.
Somebody who just lost his job and wants to commit suicide does not think that he could still emigrate to Africa and open up a farm and enjoy nature and start all over. I have also asked myself why does someone commit suicide? Before I would commit suicide I would at least try some freaky things, because if you want to kill yourself anyway you got nothing to lose. For example you could go to another country and start all over. These are the thoughts of most people, they think before I kill myself I can try so many other things because I'm "free" because I got nothing to lose. But people which are close to suicide do not think this way. This is the problem, they only look at their problems which are so dominating that they don't go through all their options in their head and then make a rational decision. I think some people really make it way too easy for themselves when they judge suiciders.

 

[xdisciplex]

However, each of the threads you begin are full of questions. If you are not searching for answers, why are you posting questions?

Of course I am seeking for answers. This is clear. I thought you were trying to imply that I was some sort of seeker for truth, because this would mean that you're saying I'm not a christian.
I am always seeking for answers, I hope that this will not be used against me. :smilewinkgrin:
Or is seeking for answers unchristian?

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

I thought you were trying to imply that I was some sort of seeker for truth, because this would mean that you're saying I'm not a christian.

Now, that quote didn't make sense to me. It sounds as though you stated that Christians do not seek the truth??? Maybe it was just late at night. My typos appear to increase during the day. Would you please elaborate on the relationship of seekers / truth / Christians?

And, I have another question. I'm used to the capitalization (or capitalisation) of Christian and Bible. Your posts regularly don't use that convention. May I ask why?

 

[genesis12]

Perhaps "just a seeker", rather than a Christian, was intended.