Did you know?

[Phillip]

Man, I missed it.... and his answer has been deleted.....
I step out of the room for an hour and look what happens....

NOW I'LL NEVER KNOW!!! OH what will I do?!!!!! I'm doomed.... oh, look a little pink flower.

I still say the beast is the antichrist! Can I get an amen!

Believe me, you didn't miss anything. I've never heard such a ridiculous interpretation of Scripture in my life.

 

[EdSutton]

Believe me, you didn't miss anything. I've never heard such a ridiculous interpretation of Scripture in my life.

You are giving far too much credit, here. It would have to improve dramatically to attain "ridiculous"!

BTW, Thanks for banning such an one, at least for now, and hopefully as long as he or she is advocating that garbage!! Just wonderin'! Is a four poster ban a new record?? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[skypair]

Who is the Beast/AC??

Party time is over, folks. Let's get down to the nitty-gritty of the issue!

The "man of sin" (lawlessness) is the first manifestation of AC. He has been awaiting the rapture all these many years so that he might step into the "limelight" of history! He is a Pope.

At first, he merely does as Rome is wont to do -- gather all "Christians" into one church, Thyatira, and establish governance over them that he once had (re: Holy Roman Empire). Thus, he arises in Rome (Rev 17:18) with no power of his own except "dark sentences" and a charismatic (in spades) personality "speaking great things" (He's the Vicar/vicariously Christ, for heaven's sake!). He doesn't even have a army ("bow" but no "arrows"). But he rides a "white horse" just like Christ!

But quickly he confirms the MidEast covenant and crowns 10 kings. Those 10 kings hate the whore (Rv 17:16) and so the MoS begins to change her theology, take her assets, and martyr any converts (5th seal) to true Christ.

Anyway, midtrib comes and the demons are released from the abyss, Rv 9:1. Therein is "chained" "THE prince of this world," Judas demon spirit (John 12:31, 14:30, Acts 1:25). Indwelt by this demon following his "death" and "resurrection," AC becomes the "son of perdition."

These images of AC are seen in the trib (Rv 3:18-24, Rv 17) and the GT (Rv 13). Of specific interest is the "harlot"/"whore" (false religion) imagery.

skypair

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

The number of his name is 666

DCLXVI in Latin

How about Decarlos Xavier ( No mans Savior)

Any other guesses?

 

[Mel Miller]

skypair,

Quote:
______________________________________________________________
Party time is over, folks. Let's get down to the nitty-gritty of the issue!

The "man of sin" (lawlessness) is the first manifestation of AC. He has been awaiting the rapture all these many years so that he might step into the "limelight" of history! He is a Pope.
______________________________________________________________

I'm surprised that skypair calls for serious debate. He is more accustomed
to flippancy than you would think by telling us to get to the nitty-gritty!!

He is the first in more than 40 posts to claim to know the identity of the
Beast. "A Pope ... the man of sin who begins to change her theology, take her assets, and martyr any converts (5th seal) to true Christ".
______________________________________________________________

Here skypair has a female "sitting on the Beast" until she "changes her theology and martyrs the believers" (since she is full of the blood of martyrs) and becomes the "man of sin" evidently after having been
assassinated and resuscitated.

Obviously this is another "twist of truth"! Paul reveals "the Apostasy (represented by the Harlot sitting on the Beast as a symbol of world power) must be "taken out of the midst" of lawful government BEFORE
the Beast can come to represent a Person called Antichrist!! The animal
continues to represent world government which WAS, IS NOT, YET STILL IS" the same Beast that was "wounded and healed" by the Ten Kings
who "remove the Harlot" from her position of power over the "kings of the earth, eat her flesh (confiscate her power) and give their power and authority to the Beast"!!! Rev.17:12-18.

Skypair correctly follows the Dispensational view that Popes represent the
Harlot System that is finally taken over by the Antichirst. But this view is wrong in assuming Satan has power to "resurrect" a human being! The
action of "wounding and healing" of the 7th Head simply reveals that the same world power System of government remains!! But in the process of "healing the wound", the Ten Kings do not restore the HARLOT, as skypair assumes, BUT restores the SYSTEM out of which the HARLOT must be
removed so the "LAWLESS ONE can be revealed" PRIOR to the Rapture
of ALL believers ON THE DAY CHRIST COMES TO DESTROY THE BEAST, both the Person and the System!!!

It's good to see skypair get serious, for a change! But he needs to
realize that "twisting the truth" can't make the Pope the "Antichrist"!!
When the Apostate Church incorporates all religions, rulers and evil regimes under its System of world government, God is about to "Judge
the Harlot and put into the minds of Ten Kings to agree and to give their
power and authority to the Little Horn" whom I think we will be able to
identify because Jesus and Paul connect this action with "knowing the sign of the End is Near when WE SEE the abomination in the Temple"!!! Matt.24:15,33.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[EdSutton]

skypair... is the first in more than 40 posts to claim to know the identity of the
Beast.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

Well, aside from the bigoted, and venomous individual that first opened this thread , that is! rolleyes: Again!!)

Ed

 

[skypair]

skypair,

He is the first in more than 40 posts to claim to know the identity of the Beast. "A Pope ... the man of sin who begins to change her theology, take her assets, and martyr any converts (5th seal) to true Christ".

Wow! Imagine that!!

Here skypair has a female "sitting on the Beast" until she "changes her theology and martyrs the believers"

The "Harlot" RCC is indeed a woman, symbolic of false religion.

(since she is full of the blood of martyrs) and becomes the "man of sin" evidently after having been assassinated and resuscitated.

No, this shows the MoS BEFORE he is assassinated. Don't get so excited and you won't get so discombobulated.

Obviously this is another "twist of truth"! Paul reveals "the Apostasy (represented by the Harlot sitting on the Beast as a symbol of world power) must be "taken out of the midst" of lawful government BEFORE the Beast can come to represent a Person called Antichrist!!

Well, you got that one slightly skewed, First off, the woman rides the beast BEFORE the tribulation. Obviously, no one rides the beast/AC when he comes to power. He changes the whole religion of the harlot. And "apostacy MUST BE taken out before MoS/AC can be revealed?" Why?? I should think that apostasy would be the PERFECT environment for the AC!!

So what we see is a unique insight into the harlot. We see her in the wilderness -- I'd say it already happened! In Korazim, 2000! Remember the Pope in his finery in the "wilderness?" Loved the upsidedown cross on his chair, didn't you? Do you think maybe John was taken to that very moment?! (More insight: Rev 18:1-4 is also pretrib with the church raptured in 18:4!!!)

The animal continues to represent world government which WAS, IS NOT, YET STILL IS" the same Beast that was "wounded and healed" by the Ten Kings who "remove the Harlot" from her position of power over the "kings of the earth, eat her flesh (confiscate her power) and give their power and authority to the Beast"!!! Rev.17:12-18.

Not so fast! The beast in Rev 17 is AC. The beast in Rev 13 is the world power and government of which you speak. Don't get confused on that point, monsier.

Skypair correctly follows the Dispensational view that Popes represent the Harlot System that is finally taken over by the Antichirst. Thank you. But this view is wrong in assuming Satan has power to "resurrect" a human being! The action of "wounding and healing" of the 7th Head simply reveals that the same world power System of government remains!!

Not so fast, sparky. First off, have you read Zech 11:17? Second, it is one of the "heads" that was wounded -- one of the 7 KINGS (Rev 17:9-10). Third, sure it only appears that Satan resurrects him. But consider -- Satan fought with Michael over the body of Moses. Does it make sense that God would let Satan have THIS body? See, mel, you haven't puzzled the pieces together yet, have you? :laugh:

But in the process of "healing the wound", the Ten Kings do not restore the HARLOT, as skypair assumes, I don't even assert that. BUT restores the SYSTEM out of which the HARLOT must be removed so the "LAWLESS ONE can be revealed" Restores the church, you mean? How, pray tell, is the harlot removed? PRIOR to the Rapture of ALL believers ON THE DAY CHRIST COMES TO DESTROY THE BEAST, both the Person and the System!!!

It's good to see skypair get serious, for a change!

Thank you again. Actually, taking the wise virgins first and seeing some of the foolish virgins become "harlots" with the RCC is NOT a stretch, is it? Certainly the MoS could then be revealed to come from inside the church but was "witheld" by those who knew better -- the "wise virgins." In fact, doesn't it show that Thyatira especially is one of those "foolish virgins" left behind and thrown into GT?

But he needs to realize that "twisting the truth" can't make the Pope the "Antichrist"!!

OK, I promise I'm NOT doing that! Is the harlot in Rev 2:22 not the same harlot as in Rev 17:5, 18?? You be the judge. Don't complain to me for my comparing scripture with scripture.

When the Apostate Church incorporates all religions, rulers and evil regimes under its System of world government, God is about to "Judge the Harlot and put into the minds of Ten Kings to agree and to give their power and authority to the Little Horn"

Yeah, like they DIDN'T already give their power to him in order to enforce the 7 year covenant. Lame, mel. Hope you don't "bail out" on this thread, too! :laugh:

Mel, I appreciate your POV. It may bring up issues that are yet unresolved for many who "lurk" here. But be advised -- if you're gonna doubt me, you're gonna have to have your "ducks in a row" and lay off the sniping from behind those "strawmen!" :laugh: :laugh:

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

skypair,

Quotes:
______________________________________________________________
I wrote:
The animal continues to represent world government which WAS, IS NOT, YET STILL IS" the same Beast that was "wounded and healed" by the Ten Kings who "remove the Harlot" from her position of power over the "kings of the earth, eat her flesh (confiscate her power) and give their power and authority to the Beast"!!! Rev.17:12-18.


skypair writes: "Not so fast! The beast in Rev 17 is AC. The beast in Rev 13 is the world power and government of which you speak. Don't get confused on that point, monsier.
_________________________________________________________
skypair, You consistently make statements without scriptural evidence. If Rev.13 does NOT refer to the personal Antichrist, why are the personal pronouns used to describe his very words and actions?
And if insist the Beast of Rev.17 is recognized as the personal Antichrist during the entire 7-year period of tribulation (as you claim without any evidence), rather than just a symbolic animal that carries the Harlot until its 7th head is wounded (when the Ten Kings destoy her), HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE WOMAN SITTING ON HIS (INSTEAD OF ITS) SEVEN HEADS?
Everyone with whom I have ever discussed the Beast Image in Rev.17 agrees it is not personified until the middle of Daniel's 7 year-period! That's when Satan gives him his power so that he rules the world for 3 1/2 years and not during the entire period!! The Beast is not personified nor does he receive power to rule the world until Ten Kings destroy the Harlot City at mid-week so that, as a person, he fulfills the prophecy of Rev.13 for 42 months as the Antichrist!!!
The Beast cannot represent a Person while IT carries the Woman! Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:

 

[Hope of Glory]

Did you know there are 666 cities in China? I was doing some research on a missionary there, came across a travel site, and it asked something like, "Which of China's 666 cities do you want to visit?"

Therefore...

(Although I'm serious about 666 cities in China, my tongue is in my cheek.)

 

[EdSutton]

Did you know there are 666 cities in China? I was doing some research on a missionary there, came across a travel site, and it asked something like, "Which of China's 666 cities do you want to visit?"

Therefore...

(Although I'm serious about 666 cities in China, my tongue is in my cheek.)

You (or the travel site) gotta' be kidding about 666 cities in China. (Maybe 16,666!) Maybe if one has or takes the freedom to classify cities to fit some preconceived notion or agenda. The population of China tops a billion people. My home state of Kentucky, with a population of a few less than 4 million people and 120 counties, has 119 cities that are county seats alone, (McCreary County has no 'incorporated city'.) not to mention probably an equal number of cities that are not county seats. There are thousands of cities in the United States, with a quarter of the population of China, give or take.
Besides that, what does the number of cities, or the price of tea for that matter , in China, have in the least to do with the identity of the "beast"? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Wow! Imagine that!!

The "Harlot" RCC is indeed a woman, symbolic of false religion.

No, this shows the MoS BEFORE he is assassinated. Don't get so excited and you won't get so discombobulated.

Well, you got that one slightly skewed, First off, the woman rides the beast BEFORE the tribulation. Obviously, no one rides the beast/AC when he comes to power. He changes the whole religion of the harlot. And "apostacy MUST BE taken out before MoS/AC can be revealed?" Why?? I should think that apostasy would be the PERFECT environment for the AC!!

So what we see is a unique insight into the harlot. We see her in the wilderness -- I'd say it already happened! In Korazim, 2000! Remember the Pope in his finery in the "wilderness?" Loved the upsidedown cross on his chair, didn't you? Do you think maybe John was taken to that very moment?! (More insight: Rev 18:1-4 is also pretrib with the church raptured in 18:4!!!)

Not so fast! The beast in Rev 17 is AC. The beast in Rev 13 is the world power and government of which you speak. Don't get confused on that point, monsier.

Not so fast, sparky. First off, have you read Zech 11:17? Second, it is one of the "heads" that was wounded -- one of the 7 KINGS (Rev 17:9-10). Third, sure it only appears that Satan resurrects him. But consider -- Satan fought with Michael over the body of Moses. Does it make sense that God would let Satan have THIS body? See, mel, you haven't puzzled the pieces together yet, have you? :laugh:



Thank you again. Actually, taking the wise virgins first and seeing some of the foolish virgins become "harlots" with the RCC is NOT a stretch, is it? Certainly the MoS could then be revealed to come from inside the church but was "witheld" by those who knew better -- the "wise virgins." In fact, doesn't it show that Thyatira especially is one of those "foolish virgins" left behind and thrown into GT?

OK, I promise I'm NOT doing that! Is the harlot in Rev 2:22 not the same harlot as in Rev 17:5, 18?? You be the judge. Don't complain to me for my comparing scripture with scripture.

Yeah, like they DIDN'T already give their power to him in order to enforce the 7 year covenant. Lame, mel. Hope you don't "bail out" on this thread, too! :laugh:

Mel, I appreciate your POV. It may bring up issues that are yet unresolved for many who "lurk" here. But be advised -- if you're gonna doubt me, you're gonna have to have your "ducks in a row" and lay off the sniping from behind those "strawmen!" :laugh:


skypair

I'm tempted to offer that ""strawmen!"" are not limited to any one particular individual, but maybe that's just me.
FTR, the words rendered "as it had been slain", in Rev. 6 that refer to the Lamb, and the words rendered "as it were wounded to death", referring to the beast with seven heads and ten horns, are I believe, exactly the same in the Greek text, if my memory is not failing me. That sure sounds to me like the same thing.

Ed

 

[Mel Miller]

Did Your Know?

Ed Sutton and skypair,

Yes Ed, I agree with you and disagree with skypair! The wounding was
unto death!! But skypair says that Satan only "appeared" to resurrect the Antichrist (AC)!! He was just as wrong to call the AC "the Pope"!!!

skypair's quote:
_____________________________________________________________
The beast in Rev 13 is the world power and government of which you speak. Don't get confused on that point, monsier.

Not so fast, sparky. First off, have you read Zech 11:17? Second, it is one of the "heads" that was wounded -- one of the 7 KINGS (Rev 17:9-10). Third, sure it only appears that Satan resurrects him.
_____________________________________________________________

skypair didn't respond to my challenge about Rev.13 referring to the
Antichrist AFTER the Head is healed! However, the PRE-WOUNDED Head
is NOT the Antichrist!! The Pre-Wounded Beast carries the Harlot Woman
until the Ten Kings destroy the City in One Hour with Fire!!!

skypair assumes the healing of the Head occurs before the beginning of
Daniel's 70th period of seven years! skypair also has the Ten Kings giving their power and authority to the Antichrist before that period begins!! He
fails, as usual, to give any scripture to support his theories!!!

We all agree that one of the Heads is wounded; but skypair wants you to think I am "confused"! It's the 7th Head that is wounded and healed since there are not EIGHT Heads to represent an 8th King!! The 7th Head does "double-duty" so that IT represents both the 7th and 8th Kings!!!

The Pre-Trib interpretation errs in a TWOFOLD manner! First, it assumes the AC can be literally killed and resurrected by Satan!! Satan has no more power over a dead man than he had over the body of Moses!!! So
we don't need to "consider" skypair's senseless suggestion that "Satan fought with Michael over the body of Moses".

Second, the Pre-Wounded 7th Head (7th World Power and its Ruler sitting on the symoblic Beast-Entity) must include both neuter and the masculine features of the Apostate Harlot which Paul requires to be "taken out of the way" at Daniel's Mid-Seven before the Lawless One can be revealed! Both the RULER (masculine; 7th King) and its System of World Power (neuter) will be totally destroyed (utterly wounded to death) by the PERSONIFIED Beast!! The healed 7th Head (same head which represents both the 7th and 8th kings) finds the Beast Personified and empowerd by the "Beast of the Abyss" who will displace both the RULER of the 7th World Power and the System of Government that was "taken away"!!!

The Beast from the Abyss is not the same as the Beast with the 7 Heads and 10 Horns! Nor is it a human raised up from the dead!! The 8th King, represented by the healed 7th Head, is the "little horn" indwelt by Satan who "confirmed the covenant with many" 3 1/2 years earlier!! This Beast is the Personified Beast from the Abyss and will totally displace the SYSTEM of government by "changing its times and laws" for 42 months!!!

I was waiting to see if skypair would be bold enough to challenge me on the role of the Beast in Rev.13. His view that it represents world power, rather than the AC himself, is partly true ... but only with respect to the rule of the Apostate Harlot (both King and System) prior to the Mid-Week wounding and healing of its 7th Head. God will JUDGE the Harlot before
He puts into the minds of the Ten Kings to give their power and authority to the Beast in addition to that of a demon of the Abyss! Rev.17:8-18.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:

 

[skypair]

skypair,

skypair writes: "Not so fast! The beast in Rev 17 is AC. The beast in Rev 13 is the world power and government of which you speak. Don't get confused on that point, monsier.
_________________________________________________________
skypair, You consistently make statements without scriptural evidence.

We're talking about SCRIPTURE if we are comparing Rev 13 with Rev 17 are we not??

If Rev.13 does NOT refer to the personal Antichrist, why are the personal pronouns used to describe his very words and actions?

The "personal pronouns" are as regards one of the heads, no? It is NOT all 7 heads that speak -- it is the one that was wounded, right?

And if [you] insist the Beast of Rev.17 is recognized as the personal Antichrist during the entire 7-year period of tribulation (as you claim without any evidence), rather than just a symbolic animal that carries the Harlot until its 7th head is wounded (when the Ten Kings destoy her), HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE WOMAN SITTING ON HIS (INSTEAD OF ITS) SEVEN HEADS?

Rev 17:3 says she "sit upon a scarlet coloured beast." Which translation are you using or did you merely misquote scripture? She rides the "beast"/AC, right? Personally, I also see the Rev 17 beast as "dated." That is, he is prior to midtrib. Does that help your understanding?

Everyone with whom I have ever discussed the Beast Image in Rev.17 agrees it is not personified until the middle of Daniel's 7 year-period!

Well, "welcome to the club!" :laugh: Do you think you ever get false information?

That's when Satan gives him his power so that he rules the world for 3 1/2 years and not during the entire period!!

Well, let my "help" you out then -- the beast in Rev 13 is the empire because in the 6th trumpet (Rev 9:12), the angels "whose dominions were taken away but whose lives were prolonged for a season and a time" (Dan 8:13) are released from the Euphrates and they actually empower the AC to establish another world empire! Course, you wouldn't already know this cause you been hangin' around the "club" too much! :laugh:

The Beast is not personified [indwelt?] nor does he receive power to rule the world [angels in the Euphrates] until Ten Kings destroy the Harlot City at mid-week [nuclear war of trumpets 1-3?] so that, as a person, he fulfills the prophecy of Rev.13 for 42 months as the Antichrist!!!

Very good! Do you see why the WORLD worships him at midtrib now?

The Beast cannot represent a Person while IT carries the Woman!

No, mel. Focus! The "harlot" is goes out of existence with the destruction of Rome, just like you say! And it is NOT carrying the woman -- HER riding HIM means she controls him! That is NOW! But the MoS will be making his OWN rules as soon as the true church is GONE!

I'm sorry for my sarcasm -- my point is that Rev 17 takes us from pretrib to midtrib, the personal AC. Rev 13 is GT -- the WORLD empire of AC empowered by the 5th trump demons (including the one that indwells him), the 6th trumpet "spirits" from the Euphrates that being back the world dominion, and the 7th trump/3rd woe which is Satan cast out of heaven and knowing that his time is short.

We really need to get "in depth" with this discussion. You're just "skimming the surface" on prophecy, my friend. I am glad for you interest -- I hope you are ready to "take the plunge" with me and understand how it all "plays out." :thumbs:

skypair

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Ed Sutton and skypair,

Please note that skypair still has no scriptural support for AC being the Pope! But I wish to emphasize again that Satan “resurrects the world power” which the Ten Kings destroy in one hour with fire!! Skypair errs to suggest Satan “appears to resurrect the AC”!!!

Skypair is very deceptive in repeating his “general reference” to Rev.13 and his false interpretation that Rev.13 describes world power; but NOT the personal AC. For Rev.13 is the single chapter that describes his words and deeds as the Personal AC.
Skypair’s Quotes:

The beast in Rev 17 is AC. The beast in Rev 13 is the world power. Post 47. We're talking about SCRIPTURE if we compare Rev 13 with Rev 17 are we not?? Post #53 is a mere repetition of Post 47.
Skypair: “This shows the MoS (Man of Sin) BEFORE he is assassinated. Don't get so excited and you won't get so discombobulated”.

Here is where skypair shows he is the one who is “discombobulated”. The Beast is NOT from the Abyss as the Antichrist until Ten Kings destroy the Apostate System and its Ruler (neuter and masculine of 2 Thess.2:6-7)!
Satan does NOT “appear to resurrect the Antichrist” because he only resurrects the world System at Daniel’s MID-WEEK which Ten Kings destroy along with the Ruler of that System!! Skypair has no scripture to support his claim that Satan “appears to resurrect AC” since the Apostate System and its Ruler (neuter and masculine; 2 Thess.2:6-7) must be “taken out of the midst” of human government before Antichrist can be revealed!!!
Skypair “twists truth” that AC will be the Pope and now again by making AC the one that is totally “wounded to death and then only apparently healed”! He actually admits his error by agreeing with me that the personal pronouns refer to the AC only after the Beast has been “healed of its deadly wound”!!
[“The "personal pronouns" are as regards one of the heads, no? It is the one that was wounded that speaks -- right”?] YES, but only after its 7th Head is Personified!!!
The Beast-Animal must be “healed of its deadly wound” before AC is empowered by the Beast from the Abyss to “speak and to change times and laws for 42 months”! Ten Kings are the means by which God removes the “Restrainer” so that AC can be revealed!! Until Daniel’s Midweek the Harlot “sits” on the symbolic Beast (Animal) and also on the 7 mountains represented by the “seven heads” on the Beast-Animal!!!
Only then does the whole world worship the Beast-Person empowered by the Beast from the Abyss. The Beast WAS wounded and healed” in its 7th head so that the same Head represents TWO KINGS, the 7th and the 8th. Rev.13:1-3; Rev.17:8-18.
The Harlot sits on 7 Heads (representing both kings and mountains) as well as on the Beast Itself! Skypair’s caustic remark here shows he misses part of the truth: Quote: “Rev 17:3 says she `sits upon a scarlet coloured beast.’ Which translation are you (Mel) using or did you merely misquote scripture? She rides the beast/AC, right”?
Yes, she sits on the world Apostate Power System of 2 Thess.2 and on the 7 hills of Rome at the same time!! Before Ten Kings destroy her, the coming prince of Dan.9 (AC) is a “little horn” who subdues 3 of 10 kings; but AC only rules the world for 42 months!!!
Skypair has some truth. Quote: “I'm sorry for my sarcasm -- my point is that Rev.17 takes us from pretrib to midtrib, the personal AC. Rev 13 is GT -- the WORLD empire of AC empowered by the 5th trump demons.”
Yes again, the great tribulation is only at the time Satan’s Abyss-Beast empowers AC for no more than 42 months. There is no scripture, not even Dan.9:27, which even hints that he rules the world during the mis-named “tribulation period” with its time of “peace”!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[EdSutton]

Ed Sutton and skypair,

Please note that skypair still has no scriptural support for AC being the Pope! But I wish to emphasize again that Satan “resurrects the world power” which the Ten Kings destroy in one hour with fire!! Skypair errs to suggest Satan “appears to resurrect the AC”!!!

Skypair is very deceptive in repeating his “general reference” to Rev.13 and his false interpretation that Rev.13 describes world power; but NOT the personal AC. For Rev.13 is the single chapter that describes his words and deeds as the Personal AC.
Skypair’s Quotes:

The beast in Rev 17 is AC. The beast in Rev 13 is the world power. Post 47. We're talking about SCRIPTURE if we compare Rev 13 with Rev 17 are we not?? Post #53 is a mere repetition of Post 47.
Skypair: “This shows the MoS (Man of Sin) BEFORE he is assassinated. Don't get so excited and you won't get so discombobulated”.

Here is where skypair shows he is the one who is “discombobulated”. The Beast is NOT from the Abyss as the Antichrist until Ten Kings destroy the Apostate System and its Ruler (neuter and masculine of 2 Thess.2:6-7)!
Satan does NOT “appear to resurrect the Antichrist” because he only resurrects the world System at Daniel’s MID-WEEK which Ten Kings destroy along with the Ruler of that System!! Skypair has no scripture to support his claim that Satan “appears to resurrect AC” since the ApostateSystem and its Ruler (neuter and masculine; 2 Thess.2:6-7) must be “taken out of the midst” of human government before Antichrist can be revealed!!!
Skypair “twists truth” that AC will be the Pope and now again by making AC the one thatis totally “wounded to death and then only apparently healed”! He actually admits his error by agreeing with me that the personal pronouns refer to the AC only after the Beast has been “healed of its deadly wound”!!
[“The "personal pronouns" are as regards one of the heads, no? It is the one that was wounded that speaks -- right”?] YES, but only after its 7th Head is Personified!!!
The Beast-Animal must be “healed of its deadly wound” before AC is empowered by the Beast from the Abyss to “speak and to change times and laws for 42 months”! Ten Kings are the means by which God removes the “Restrainer” so that AC can be revealed!! Until Daniel’s Midweek the Harlot “sits” on the symbolic Beast (Animal) and also on the 7 mountains represented by the “seven heads” on the Beast-Animal!!!
Only then does the whole world worship the Beast-Person empowered by the Beast from the Abyss. The Beast WAS wounded and healed” in its 7th head so that the same Head represents TWO KINGS, the 7th and the 8th. Rev.13:1-3; Rev.17:8-18.
The Harlot sits on 7 Heads (representing both kings and mountains) as well as on the Beast Itself! Skypair’s caustic remark here shows he misses part of the truth: Quote: “Rev 17:3 says she `sits upon a scarlet coloured beast.’ Which translation are you (Mel) using or did you merely misquote scripture? She rides the beast/AC, right”?
Yes, she sits on the world Apostate Power System of 2 Thess.2 and on the 7 hills of Rome at the same time!! Before Ten Kings destroy her, the coming prince of Dan.9 (AC) is a “little horn” who subdues 3 of 10 kings; but AC only rules the world for 42 months!!!
Skypair has some truth. Quote: “I'm sorry for my sarcasm -- my point is that Rev.17 takes us from pretrib to midtrib, the personal AC. Rev 13 is GT -- the WORLD empire of AC empowered by the 5th trump demons.”
Yes again, the great tribulation is only at the time Satan’s Abyss-Beast empowers AC for no more than 42 months. There is no scripture, not even Dan.9:27, which even hints that he rules the world during the mis-named “tribulation period” with its time of “peace”!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

FTR, I said nothing here about your view or Skypair's view or my own view as to the Anti-Christ being or not being the Pope, or in my case, almost anyone else. The only thing I offered, along those lines, was that Judas is the only person identified in Scripture with the appelation of "Son of Perdition". And as to whom it is or may be, as somewhat as I posted earlier, there are plenty of strawmen to go around without me constructing one. 'Sides all that, I'm already discombubulated enough without adding any more to it. :laugh:

Ed

 

[skypair]

Ed Sutton and skypair,

Please note that skypair still has no scriptural support for AC being the Pope!

Just because the harlot rides/controls the beast of Rev 17 at some point AND she sits in Rome (17:18) AND Thyatira is a harlot church coinciding with the timing of the RCC in order of mention in Rev 2-3 (2:22) AND she drags others into GT AND AC comes from the church (2Thes 2:3-8 - which chapter is the "church's Olivet Disourse") -- none of these "add up" to AC = Pope to you? What evidence would you deem worthy, "master?"

But I wish to emphasize again that Satan “resurrects the world power” which the Ten Kings destroy in one hour with fire!!

The 10 kings, complicit with AC, do indeed destroy the HARLOT, Rev 17:16, who rode the beast/AC. You're still not recognizing the beasts for who they are.

Skypair is very deceptive in repeating his “general reference” to Rev.13 and his false interpretation that Rev.13 describes world power; but NOT the personal AC. For Rev.13 is the single chapter that describes his words and deeds as the Personal AC.

The beast in Rev 13 is the empire -- the 7th head is the AC. The head (AC) was injured, not the body (empire). Yes, the words and deeds of the head are described. You call it "personal AC." I can't fathom what that means other than indwelt by Satan.


skypair

 

[npetreley]

I'm afraid I disagree with what happened here. I don't think the OP's explanation post should have been deleted.

He made a number of assertions without explicit Biblical support. Maybe it's expecting too much to think that someone with such a controversial view would be convinced that he is in error, but at least we would have had a scripture-based debate to attempt to expose the lies and the truth through scripture. IMO, deleting the post simply encourages the person to feel as if he is the only one who has the right answers and nobody else is willing to deal with the truth.

I'm Greek. I realize I have not lived a life as a victim of prejudice because I'm Greek, so I can't claim that all things are equal. However, if he had stated that Greeks are the seed of the devil, I would not be offended. I would have challenged him to support that view with scripture. If his view was unscriptural, the ensuing debate would have revealed that. It's probable that he would have held to his views despite prooftexts that refute it, but that's nothing new for this board.

 

[Mel Miller]

Skypair believes:

“The Man of Sin is a Pope … He arises in Rome (Rev 17:18) with no power of his own except `dark sentences and … speaking great things’ (He's the Vicar/vicariously Christ, for heaven's sake!). He doesn't even have a army ("bow" but no "arrows"). But he rides a `white horse’ just like Christ”! This is your basic error!

You believe:
“The woman rides the beast BEFORE the tribulation. The beast in Rev 17 is AC. The beast in Rev 13 is the world power”.

In answer to my statement: “The action of "wounding and healing" (W&H) of the 7th Head simply reveals that the same world power System of government remains”, you stated: “It only appears that Satan resurrects him. Does it make sense that God would let Satan have THIS body? See, mel, you haven't puzzled the pieces together yet, have you”?

I wrote: “Satan restores the SYSTEM out of which the HARLOT is removed by the Ten Kings”. In bold letters, skypair responds: “Restores the church, you mean? How, pray tell, is the harlot removed”? This reflects your view that AC changes his own Harlot church (“changes her theology)”! You do not see the Harlot System and its Ruler (neuter and masculine) of 2 Thess.2:6-7 being removed from “the midst” of human government so that AC can be “revealed” AT MIDWEEK!! Instead you see AC changing his own religious System BEFORE the seven-year tribulation!!!

Skypair, your view is out of sync with the time for AC to be revealed! AC rules only 3½ of the seven years since the W&H of the 7th Head occurs in order for AC to rule the world for 42 months as the 8th King!! Rome rules the “kings of earth” during the first half of the 7th World Empire of Daniel’s final seven years of prophecy!!!

Your view wrongly assumes the Pope is the Antichrist! It is therefore also wrong to assume the Pope will be “apparently resurrected” after receiving a “deadly wound”!! You admitted this by stating Satan “apparently” heals the 7th Head!!!

What you fail to realize is the back-to-back rule of the Harlot and the AC over the
same 7th World Empire! You distort the fact that the SAME empire continues after Ten Kings totally WOUND it to death!! The 7th World Power must do DOUBLE DUTY to represent the Rule of the Harlot and the Rule of AC for another 42 months!!!

The W&H of the final, 7th, world empire occurs at Midweek when the Ten Kings destroy Rome and the AC is revealed by their support in “giving him their power and authority”! Rev.17:13. They will continue to rule the same World Empire "until the words of God are fulfilled"!! Rev.17:17. The Harlot comes under the Judgment of God as one of Five Catalysts of the Endtime!!!

Until you recognize the correct order and timing of events in Revelation, you continue to err with the Pope serving as both the 7th and 8th Kings as well as the Rider on the Red Horse who “takes peace from earth” after changing his own System as the Rider on the White Horse! During the Pope’s rule, the Little Horn of Daniel is simply “one of many” who confirms the seven-year covenant!! It makes no sense to think the Pope will CHANGE his own Religious System and “take peace from the earth”!!!

Here's your closing statement above:
"The beast in Rev 13 is the empire -- the 7th head is the AC. The head (AC) was injured, not the body (empire)".

Again, the wound is deadly; not just an "injury"! And the wound affects the entire Beast; not just the 7th Head!! [He is identified as "the Beast that received the deadly wound" in order to distinguish him from the Beast from the earth.] The head alone, however, comes to represent the 8th King when Ten Kings destroy and bring about the Endtime change of both Ruler and System which still continue as the SAME 7th Empire!!!

I reject your offer: "We really need to get in depth with this discussion. You're skimming the surface on prophecy, my friend. I am glad for your interest -- I hope you are ready to `take the plunge' with me and understand how it all `plays out'". But we are still "fellow-saints"!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:

 

[Mel Miller]

Ed Sutton,

You wrote:
FTR, I said nothing here about your view or Skypair's view or my own view as to the Anti-Christ being or not being the Pope, or in my case, almost anyone else. The only thing I offered, along those lines, was that Judas is the only person identified in Scripture with the appelation of "Son of Perdition". And as to whom it is or may be, as somewhat as I posted earlier, there are plenty of strawmen to go around without constructing one. 'Sides all that, I'm already discombubulated enough without adding any more to it. :laugh:

That's good, but when I thanked you for verfying the Beast's Wound was "deadly", I was referring to post #51:

"FTR, the words rendered `as it had been slain', in Rev. 6 that refer to the Lamb, and the words rendered `as it were wounded to death', referring to the beast with seven heads and ten horns, are I believe, exactly the same in the Greek text, if my memory is not failing me. That sure sounds to me like the same thing".

Recognition of the deadly nature of the "Wound" disallows the popular view that the AC will be assassinated and resurrected. That, in turn,
prevents the Beast from representing a HUMAN until its 7th Head is
wounded; AND then healed by Satan's Beast from the Abyss and by
God putting into the minds of Ten Kings to give their (oil) power and
united authority to the Beast. That Head is "Healed" to represent the Person of AC and yet continues to represent the SAME 7th World Empire.

Skypair refuses to accept the symbolism and claims the Pope will be
"apparently wounded to death". It is true that the Beast is "apparently"
wounded to death because its 7th Head continues to represent the
same World Empire. But the END of the Harlot's rule is total. The confusion comes in trying to identify the Beast as the AC BEFORE it is W&H as the Ten Kings detroy the Harlot and change the System's "times and laws"!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:

 

[skypair]

You do not see the Harlot System and its Ruler (neuter and masculine) of 2 Thess.2:6-7 being removed from “the midst” of human government so that AC can be “revealed” AT MIDWEEK!! Instead you see AC changing his own religious System BEFORE the seven-year tribulation!!!

Sorry for my short post yesterday -- my router and then my modem kept acting up so I quit for the day.

Your sceanrio is pretty good, actually. :love2: Problematic, but good. Think about it though -- 2thes 2:6-7 is pretrib. 2:3 tells us that the harlot comes, then the MoS, then the SoP. So the harlot is the RCC, 2:6-7 is the TRUE church being taken out, "that Wicked revealed" is the MoS, and the SoP is the GT AC having "flung" the harlot.

Skypair, your view is out of sync with the time for AC to be revealed! AC rules only 3½ of the seven years since the W&H of the 7th Head occurs in order for AC to rule the world for 42 months as the 8th King!! Rome rules the “kings of earth” during the first half of the 7th World Empire of Daniel’s final seven years of prophecy!!!

You are technically right. When he arises, Daniel calls AC a "prince" who confirms the covenant for 7 years. Zech 11:8 tells us that in 3 months he "cuts off" 3 shepherds and I would suggest that it is at this juncture that AC crowns 10 kings and they give him their authority (Rev 17:12-13). Notice, Daniel calls them "horns" in Dan 7:8, 20. But this is just as they came up in the early trib.

I agree that AC rules the world for only 42 months as the 8th king -- But he rules the EU among 10 appointed "kings" for almost the full 7 years. With what power would he enforce the covenant without that?

Your view wrongly assumes the Pope is the Antichrist! It is therefore also wrong to assume the Pope will be “apparently resurrected” after receiving a “deadly wound”!!

Is it wrong that this makes him appear as Christ before a people who will follow after one who comes in his own name? Who is preceded by a "false Elijah"/fp? That he then makes his capital city Jerusalem (Dan 11:45)? That he then begins to make war on those Jews who saw Christ just as Gog was attacking (Joel 2:12-30, Zech 12:10, Ezek 38-39) and BELIEVED and are the "saints" of Rev 13 that he makes war against? Do you see that he is actually trying to come into Christ's world kingdom at this point?

What you fail to realize is the back-to-back rule of the Harlot and the AC over the same 7th World Empire!

I fail to realize what the imagery is NOT. Both beasts are NOT the 7th empire. The Rev 17 beast is the AC, a "scarlet beast" just like his "father" the "red dragon"/Satan -- the Rev 13 beast is the 7th WORLD empire, a COMPOSITE beast in appearance, and only it's head is wounded to make way for the 8th king. Go reaccomplish your homework on this one, mel. :type:

The W&H of the final, 7th, world empire occurs at Midweek when the Ten Kings destroy Rome and the AC is revealed by their support in “giving him their power and authority”! Rev.17:13. They will continue to rule the same World Empire "until the words of God are fulfilled"!! Rev.17:17. The Harlot comes under the Judgment of God as one of Five Catalysts of the Endtime!!!

Your confusion of "beasts" has led you to overlook something here -- Rev 17 describes religious Babylon and AC's early kingdom (pre-midtrib). It is religious Babylon that is destroyed, not AC's kingdom. In fact, AC WANTS the harlot destroyed! If you read Dan 11:36-40, he is seen worshipping the "god of forces" and not the pretrib harlot that he emerged from. Think about it -- when John saw the harlot, he was "amazed." Why? Because he had heard about the harlot from the lips of Christ in Rev 2:22! and it was a "church!"

Until you recognize the correct order and timing of events in Revelation, you continue to err with the Pope serving as both the 7th and 8th Kings as well as the Rider on the Red Horse who “takes peace from earth” after changing his own System as the Rider on the White Horse! During the Pope’s rule, the Little Horn of Daniel is simply “one of many” who confirms the seven-year covenant!! It makes no sense to think the Pope will CHANGE his own Religious System and “take peace from the earth”!!!

Well, you mistate my view there, mel. You may have heard that theory from others of my suasion but I have NEVER supported that view. I DON'T believe that the red horse rider is the AC or Pope. He is the "coming" Mahdi of Islam! And Daniel says he "confirms a covenant with many" -- not that they confirm it. It is likely that they draw it up and are the enforcing signatories of it.

Again, the wound is deadly; not just an "injury" And the wound affects the entire Beast; not just the 7th Head!! [He is identified as "the Beast that received the deadly wound" in order to distinguish him from the Beast from the earth.] The head alone, however, comes to represent the 8th King when Ten Kings destroy and bring about the Endtime change of both Ruler and System which still continue as the SAME 7th Empire!!!

Now that's garbled logic. The beast is dead but the head is not?

I reject your offer: "We really need to get in depth with this discussion..."

Why? Oh, I know. If you find out the truth, you'll have to deconstruct and reconstruct your website, eh? :sleep:

skypair