• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Dietary Laws

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Again, sorry to hear you think that.
And I'm sorry to hear that you're sorry to hear that. The NKJV uses the same text as the KJV, which seems to be your preferred translation.
I would never "prefer" such a thing as that.

Even worse than that of the NKJV's abomination of a translation. It is simply a false translation, and even worse, it adds words not found present in the koine Greek text.

Mar 7:18 και λεγει αυτοις ουτως και υμεις ασυνετοι εστε ου νοειτε οτι παν το εξωθεν εισπορευομενον εις τον ανθρωπον ου δυναται αυτον κοινωσαι
Mar 7:19 οτι ουκ εισπορευεται αυτου εις την καρδιαν αλλ εις την κοιλιαν και εις τον αφεδρωνα εκπορευεται καθαριζον παντα τα βρωματα

Please show me, from these two koine Greek texts where the words (translated to) "Thus he declared all foods clean" exist? I will be more than willing to show you that such phrasing does not exist there.
The difference between the Textus Receptus and the Critical Text is simply one word. The T.R. has καθαριζον indicating that it is the excretion of the food (or the latrine into which the food is excreted), which purifies it, while the C.T. has καθαριζων, suggesting that it is the Lord Jesus who has purified the food. By quoting the NKJV originally, I was showing my support for the T.R. rendering. However, you might like to consider Acts 10:15 in this context.
It is rather simple:

Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

Plain English, no?
Indeed so, if you are a 16th or 17th Century Englishman. The NKJV has, "So He said to them, are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods."
The two main differences are the addition of the word 'thus' which the NKJV adds to help the meaning, but places in italics to show that it is not in the original; and the translation of καθαριζον as 'purifying' rather than 'puging.' FYI, the KJV translates καθαριζω as 'purify' 3 times, 'cleanse' 16 times, 'make clean' 5 times and 'purge' 3 times. In the Passive, it is translated 'be clean' 3 times.

But the main point is that the Lord Jesus says, "Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him." Food and drink cannot defile us, which is why the apostle Paul says, 'For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit' (Rom. 14:17).
 

GentleGospeller

Active Member
And I'm sorry to hear that you're sorry to hear that.
Your prerogative to use a text which has serious issues (for another thread of course).

The NKJV uses the same text as the KJV
It doesn't actually.

, which seems to be your preferred translation.
It is not about 'preference' of 'mine' (as if "I" get to decide what is and or is not God's words; a disgusting thought). The words either are, or are not, the words of God. It is that simple.

However, in your case, it does sounds like 'preference', since you are claiming to reject that which has been received by the church, for that which is rejected by the church, and accepted by critics, who sit in judgment over God's words, which was never their place to do.

The difference between the Textus Receptus and the Critical Text is simply one word.
Which makes all the difference in the world, since man lives "not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live." In the matter of taking away from or in adding to, God's words, the scriptures give sound warning, even from the begging with Eve, and the devil.

The very context was warning all:

- Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
- Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
- Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
- Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
- Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
- Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
- Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

God's words & ways, vs man's (ie. the devil's ideologies carried out in / by them) words & ways.

The T.R. has καθαριζον indicating that it is the excretion of the food (or the latrine into which the food is excreted), which purifies it
The living text (Act. 7:38; Heb. 4:12, &c.) received by the living church (1 Pet. 2:5), teaches

- Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
- Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

- Mar 7:18 και λεγει αυτοις ουτως και υμεις ασυνετοι εστε ου νοειτε οτι παν το εξωθεν εισπορευομενον εις τον ανθρωπον ου δυναται αυτον κοινωσαι
- Mar 7:19 οτι ουκ εισπορευεται αυτου εις την καρδιαν αλλ εις την κοιλιαν και εις τον αφεδρωνα εκπορευεται καθαριζον παντα τα βρωματα

That which leaves the body, after digestion, is simply "dirt" (Jdg. 3:22). Defilement is a spiritual thing, and is of the mind / heart / spirit (Mar. 7:18-23). Thus the eating of the "bread ["αρτους", "αρτον", a dietary 'clean' food allowed by God to be eaten, even from the beginning, Gen. 1:29]" (Mar. 7:2,5) "with unwashen hands" (Mar. 7:5) could not ever "defile" anyone. That which is 'purged' is the body / colon (the person) from the food eaten, since it comes in and goes out of the physical body (man is likened to a "worm", dirt in and dirt out). It reads, "καθαριζον παντα τα βρωματα" (purging all the foods), and the question is from where? The immediate context shows that the dietary 'clean' food ('bread') eaten (Jesus is speaking to Jews) is passed through the body, from the entrance (G1531; "εισπορευομενον", V-PNP-NSN) (mouth) and out the exit (anus) in going to the toilet, thus "purging" (G2511, "καθαριζον"; "V-PAP-NSN") the body of such. It is in parallel with itself.

, while the C.T.
A very dangerous 'text' with many subtractions & additions; and rejected by the living church of God.

has καθαριζων
So, the 'C.T.' has both taken away "καθαριζον" and added "καθαριζων", which changes the ending by a single letter, from 'omicron' to 'omega', lifting itself above the true word of God.

, suggesting that it is the Lord Jesus who has purified the food.
The food is already a 'clean' (sanctified by the word of God) food being eaten. It was just bread. There was no cleansing of it needful, since the word of God, even from the beginning, already sanctified the specific plant life to be eaten by mankind - Gen. 1:29. What the NKJV (by its translation, and foot note, "Mark 7:19 NU sets off the final phrase as Mark’s comment that Jesus has declared all foods clean.", ESV, NIV, and other such texts do is violate the regulations of God in diet here, and substitute (antichristos, in the place of the anointed words of God) their own dietary plans, and claim Jesus is the author of their ideology / practices, when it is the "doctrines of devils" (1 Tim. 4:1); whom, even in the beginning did the same, by tempting Eve at the tree forbidden by God to be eaten.

- 1Ti_4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

By quoting the NKJV originally, I was showing my support for the T.R. rendering.
The so called 'NKJV' does not entirely follow the same 'T.R.' as the King James Bible, and this is demonstrated from the OT and NT texts, and many examples could be provided, but this is not the subject of the thread. Any may do a quick search online to begin to see distinctions.

However, you might like to consider Acts 10:15 in this context.
Acts 10(-11, which cannot help you here, and supports what I am saying) is not the context of Mar. 7. Matthew 15 is the same context of Mark 7. - Matthew chapter 15 1611 KJV (King James Version)

Indeed so, if you are a 16th or 17th Century Englishman.
I am not, and never will be, and neither are you. The point is an 'imaginary "if" (your word)' and a waste of mental time in pretending.

The NKJV has, "So He said to them, are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods."
The 'NKJV' is not a '16-17th century' text and never will be.

The two main differences are the addition of the word 'thus'
No, only in the 'NKJV', is the word "thus" added (and adds a footnote, "Mark 7:19 NU sets off the final phrase as Mark’s comment that Jesus has declared all foods clean."), but in the 'ESV' (which you also cited) it says, "(Thus he declared all foods clean.)", so it is not merely the word "thus".

which the NKJV adds to help the meaning,
No, the 'NKJV' does not add the word, since it is just a text (based on not the same 'T.R.' as the King James Bible) and cannot choose as mankind can, but the translators of the 'NKJV' adds the word "thus", and footnote, and leads the reader to make incorrect conclusions, violating the word of God in diet and substituting mankind vain traditions in dietary practices, and claiming it is authoritative from God, when it is no such thing.

but places in italics
Sorry, but the 'italics' in a 'NKJV' are a mixed bag (see Heb. 9:12 for instance).

to show that it is not in the original
"the original" what?, autograph? How would you know? Have you seen the original autograph? I ask this, knowing full well the answer, since the translators, whether for the King James Bible, or the recent committees, only have copies of copies to work from, and their copies will vary, from small to large differences, depending on where those texts came from.

; and the translation of καθαριζον as 'purifying' rather than 'puging.'
Again, why would a food (bread, already sanctified by God's word) need to be 'purif[ied]', whether it entered and left a body (mankind) or not? It is silly to go this route.

Do you take me for a fool, idiot, or imbecile? Do you think I do not have access to the same, or more, information than you do? Please, drop the condescension.
 

GentleGospeller

Active Member
the KJV translates καθαριζω as 'purify' 3 times, 'cleanse' 16 times, 'make clean' 5 times and 'purge' 3 times.
The exact word and ending, "καθαριζον", is found only in the koine Greek NT, 1 time - Mar. 7:19

The exact word and ending, "καθαρίζων" is never found in the koine Greek NT TR.

The exact word and ending, "καθαρίζω" is never found in the koine Greek NT TR.

Here are the exact words and endings:

- "καθαρισθητι" - Mat. 8:3; Mar. 1:41; Luk. 5:13
- "εκαθαρισθη" - Mat. 8:3; Mar. 1:42; Luk. 4:27
- "καθαριζονται" - Mat. 11:5; Luk. 7:22
- "εκαθαρισθησαν" - Luk. 17:14,17
- "εκαθαρισεν" - Act. 10:15, 11:9
- "καθαριζετε" - Mat. 10:8, 23:25; Luk. 11:39
- "καθαρισαι" - Mat. 8:2; Mar. 1:40; Luk. 5:12
- "καθαρισον" - Mat. 23:26
- "καθαρισωμεν" - 2 Cor. 7:1
- "καθαρισας" - Act. 15:9; Eph. 5:26
- "καθαρισατε" - Jam. 4:8
- "καθαριση" - Tit. 2:14; 1 Jhn. 1:9
- "καθαριζει" - 1 Jhn. 1:7
- "καθαριει" - Heb. 9:14
- "καθαριζεται" - Heb. 9:22
- "καθαριζεσθαι" - Heb. 9:23
- &
- "καθαριζον" - Mar. 7:19

Other uses in Origen's Greek OT Hexapla - Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - καθαρίζω - to purify (v.)

Notice,

- the Majority of all Greek mss. including K, M, U, V, Y, Theta, Pi, Xi,
- the Diatessaron,
- the Old Latin (purgans) (see - 11th line (1st & 2nd words in latin) - "exiit purgans" (page 600) - https://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-NN-00002-00041/600 )
- Jerome's Latin (corrupted vulgate) ("exit purgans")
- as well as a, air, b, c, d, f, ff2, l, n, q
- and the Textus Receptus

have "καθαριζον", not "καθαριζω" or "καθαρίζων".

That which does have "καθαρίζων" are the two most emended texts,

- Sinaiticus (Codex 'aleph'; 3rd column, 11th-12th line) - https://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/...chapter=7&lid=en&side=r&verse=19&zoomSlider=0
- and
- Vaticanus (Codex B) - Mark, Chapter 7 (Codex Vaticanus) — Theosis Library

Neither of which are early mss, but later corruptions. More elsewhere as needful.

In the Passive, it is translated 'be clean' 3 times.
All irrelevant to the actual text of Mar. 7:19 and case / ending therein in the GNT TR.

But the main point
The point is, what the text Mar. 7:19, in context, actually says, not what others decide they needed to change it to to suit the god of their bellies.

is that the Lord Jesus says, "Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him."

Mat 15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Food and drink cannot defile us
"defile" is a spiritual thing. The Pharisees had a gross misunderstanding in regards the things Gentiles had touched, or been associated with, and their idolatry. The question of the OP is not about whether "food and drink" defiles a person. The OP is about whether the Bible / God sanctifies certain things for "food and drink", and where those things may be found. The Bible (scripture) / the LORD God (JEHOVAH Elohiym) never sanctifies the eating of 'pig' (swine), shellfish, &c. Thus persons in this thread are calling those unclean / abominable things as "food", when God / Bible never declared such as "food". The same goes for alcoholic drink.

, which is why the apostle Paul says, 'For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit' (Rom. 14:17).

You have a misunderstanding about Rom. 14.

What I have seen, so far in this thread, is various persons that think they may eat / drink all manner of things never sanctioned by God's words, go from the context of one verse / passage (Mar. 7 & Mat. 15) to things totally unrelated (Act. 10; Rom. 14; 1 Cor. 8-10). They do as the JW do, jump all over the place instead of just reading the words in their place.
 

GentleGospeller

Active Member
If I "deliver a speech" ...
Irrelevant. They didn't "deliver a speech". They delivered letters ("delivered the epistle", which "they (Jerusalem council) wrote"), to which the people at Antioch read for themselves ("Which when they (church at Antioch) had read, they rejoiced for the consolation."), and which Judas & Silas confirmed ("And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them."), having been present in Acts 15 Jerusalem council.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Nope. That is just 'you' again.
No, it is not me. In Genesis 9:3 God tells Noah "every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all thing".

The dietary restrictions are a part of the Old Covenant (between God and Israel beginning at a soecific generation and concluding on the Cross as this covenant was fulfilled).

You are ignoring too much Scripture to be taken seriously.

That said, many are of "a weaker faith". You are. Do not violate your conscious. If you and I were eating out I would refrain from exercising my freedom for your sake.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The (real) English language is richer than you can possibly imagine.
At one time it was a rich language (I studied literature for some time at university, particularly British and Irish literature). I know the richness of the language.

But I also know that much of that richness has been lost to antiquity (not only in Europe, it is lost here as well).

I was surprised that you were unable to cope with idioms and turns of phrases, even if just introduced to a saying you with which you had no previous experience.

In retrospect I should not have been surprised. I made an assumption based on your age. Americans of your generation retained a level of literacy that seems to be lost on you. In many ways Europe had led the decline with the Americas following. But we are pretty much on the same level today.


I can spell "British" (the modern standard). My phone seems to prefer "Brittish" (an obsolete soelling used in the 18th century).

My phone also prefers "Hod" for "God" (I probably fat-fingered and hit "H" at one time, but my phone remembers).


I actually enjoy British humor (not the slap-stick type but the dialogue). Same with American humor. I prefer dry humor.

We have the same diversity here. It is difficult for me to understand some dialects in Louisiana. Where I currently live we have geechee gullah culture as well. They speak English, but I cannot understand it very well.


But my point is you argued for several posts that "sinfully wrong" (an idiom where I live) must mean I was calling your post sin.


How can this be understood except that you lack an understanding about phrases having a meaning different from the combined words?
 

Mike B

Member
GentleGospeller:
Irrelevant. They didn't "deliver a speech". They delivered letters ("delivered the epistle", which "they (Jerusalem council) wrote"), to which the people at Antioch read for themselves ("Which when they (church at Antioch) had read, they rejoiced for the consolation."), and which Judas & Silas confirmed ("And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them."), having been present in Acts 15 Jerusalem council.

You are correct...no matter if Paul read it to them, or they read it themselves, the message was delivered.

STILL, you choose to ignore my question, stated again, below. If you are unable to answer, then own up
to it and say so.



If a new Christian came to your church, and was wanting to become a member, how would you Scripturally
explain to them that they needed to go home and toss out half of the food in their fridge, and completely change
their diet (as in no more Jimmy Dean sausage) in order to conform to the Old Testament dietary laws?

A new Christian reading their Bible will see that: Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the
law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of
Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

A fair question they might ask: "I am justified by faith, not the law, so why must I keep these dietary laws, as they
have no effect whatsoever on my salvation?"

For a new Christian, taking them on the tour through Isaiah, Hebrews etc. in an effort to explain would likely
make their eyes glaze over...it's too much "meat" for a new Christian to understand, especially when the contrary
seems quite apparent in NT Scripture.

So, please explain it to me as you would to that new Christian
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Too many "Christians" get caught up in a covenant of which they were never party.

In Genesis God have Adam plants as food. In Genesis (after the flood) God gave Noah all creatures as food.

Then you have a covenant made by God through Moses to Israel of Moses' generation (not their forefathers). This is called "the Old Covenant", "the Law", "the Law of Moses" (as it was given through Moses).

The purpose of this Law was to "testify to", to "bear witness of" the New Covenant to come. This Law (this Covenant) was fulfilled by Christ and "canceled" by being nailed on the cross. This Covenant ended and a "better Covenant" came into being. This Law is "fulfilled in Christ".

It is ONLY in this Old Covenant (which has been canceled as it has been fulfilled) that dietary laws exist in Scripture, and these dietary laws only applied to those who were under that Covenant.


Paul condemned "Christians" who tried to apply these laws to Chriatians. They were rejecting the New Covenant for "another gospel". They were rejecting the New Covenant in order to return to the Old Covenant which no longer testifies to the Promise to come as the Promise has come. They "fall away" from the faith.

Then there are some who lack "knowledge", who are are of "a weaker faith". These are not presented as teaching others to obey dietary laws, but they are of a weaker faith and cannot grasp the knowledge of the New Covenant. These need to obey their conscious (if they believe it is a sin for them to eat shrimp then it is a sin if they eat shrimp as they willfully do what they believe is wrong).
 
Top