different lvl's of hell

[BobRyan]

I believe it was talking about the grave where the corruption of the body would take place but the soul of our Lord was not in the grave but was in a hell while He was still alive.

Hell is a place of confinement and His soul and body were confined to the Cross but only the body went into the tomb. I believe that as Jonah was in the belly of the whale and said "out of the belly of hell cried I" which he was confined to that also the Lord was confined to the Cross which I believe to be His Hell.

In that case you would have to send BOTH David and Christ to hell (see Acts 2) only get Christ out of there (leaving David IN there) before Christ's body undergoes decay.

I know of no Christian group that would do such a thing -- I suspect they just ignore Acts 2 OR they take the approach of the Bible scholars I quoted - admitting that HADES is the grave.

Thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

In that case you would have to send BOTH David and Christ to hell (see Acts 2) only get Christ out of there (leaving David IN there) before Christ's body undergoes decay.

Only if I accept that Hades is always the grave and the definition given by the Hebrew is it can be either the grave or hell. In David's case it meant the grave for he was buried and his sepulchre is with us unto this day, but not the Lord's case he both was in Hell and had to be while the soul was still with the body (Cross) and God received his soul when He died and His body was buried but God raised him up that he did not see corruption in the grave. I don't believe the Lord's soul was in the grave or He was buried alive.

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 2 is not a case of the Hebrew. In Acts 2 we are reminded that David remains there and Christ was not left there. You seem to agree that in Acts 2 you really need "Hades" to be the grave.

#1. The term in Psalm Sheol, the term in Acts 2 - Hades - Both ref the grave AS
the texts show (the tomb).

#2. EVEN in the Acts 2 text - PETER HIMSELF makes his case by applying
PSalms 16 to BOTH David and Christ and SAYS the DIFFERENCE is
that David IS STILL THERE whereas Christ was RAISED from the dead.

The CONTRAST is between David who REMAINS in the tomb - vs Christ who was RAISED from it.

Acts 2:
24 "" But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
25 ""For David says of Him, " I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
26 "THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28 "YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.'
29 "" Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

The focus and contrast between the tomb of David and the tomb of Christ is obvious - just as we see how Peter uses that fact to point to Christ's resurrection.
The point made about the grave is in reference to death and the tomb - not to fiery hell. Peter's point is that while David is still there - Christ is not so the
text of Psalms he is quoting is to be applied to Christ.

“The Place” is called HADES the place where one “undergoes decay” The argument is that while both David and Christ go there – only Christ comes out without undergoing decay.

Acts 2

30 ""And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
32 ""This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

It makes sense that the grave - and death in all forms is ended - (1Cor 15) at the lake of fire --

But the idea that fiery hell is tossed into the lake of fire - makes no sense at all. Rather it makes more sense the the fire and brimstone of the lake of fire - is in fact -- fiery hell.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

Luke, chapter 16

"22": And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

"23": And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

"24": And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

"25": But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Then why these scriptures and the KJV say "leave my soul in hell".

I believe the scriptures in Acts all are speaking of the Lord and not David himself, except to say that his sepulchre is with us until this day, actually telling us it was not David that the scripture was speaking of.

 

[BobRyan]

In the parable of Luke 16 (which is the last in a long string of parables in Luke - a string of parables that the Jewish leaders had just complained about ) the angels "are angels" -- and "Abraham is Abraham" and "Abraham's lap is Abraham's lap" and "fire is fire" -- "tongue is Tongue" -- "Water is water" -- "Hell is hell".

So we could easily argue for Abraham being in charge of all the dead saints - and the wicked in hell communicating to Abraham and his authority alone - to aid them and to warn the living.

This is one approach -- certainly.

Or we could take it as a parable showing Abraham to be in sovereign control of the dead saints -- certainly that appealed to the Jewish leaders.

Burton Coffman

http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=016

Verse 24
And he cried, and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.
Father Abraham ...
Here is found the absolute necessity for seeing this as a parable; for Abraham himself, like all the saints in death, is in the place here called "Abraham's bosom." Abraham is therefore a type of God who presides over both Paradise and the place of the wicked in Hades. This, of course, negates any support that might be supposed in this connection for praying to departed saints. Besides that, as Wesley said:
It cannot be denied but here in Scripture is the precedent of praying to departed saints. But who is it that prays, and with what success? Will anyone who considers this be found copying after him? F39

JFB notes that while Hades is normally the underworld place of the dead -- it is used in Luke 16 to encompass the entire outcome of the wicked after the first death - which includes the lake of Fire and Brimstone in Rev 20.

Jamieson Fausset Brown
http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=016
23. in hell--not the final place of the lost (for which another word is used), but as we say "the unseen world." But as the object here is certainly to depict the whole torment of the one and the perfect bliss of the other, it comes in this case to much the same.