Diffference between independent and Southern Baptists -part II

[Salty]

The discussion from Part 1

The first thing that independents will often say about the SBC (and other groups) is that they are subject to a denominational HQ.

First - lets look at the defintion of "denomination"

de·nom·i·na·tion
(dĭ-nŏm′ə-nā′shən)
n.
1. A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name,usually organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.
2. One of a series of kinds, values, or sizes, as in a system of currency or weights: Cashregisters have slots for bills of different denominations. The stamps come in 40¢ and 70¢denominations.
3. A name or designation, especially for a class or group.

Many will say that Southern Baptist would fall under the first definition - BUT the SBC does NOT have administrative and legal hierarchy. We are just as independent as a IFB church. Any cooeperation we have is strictly voluntairly - Contrary to populary beleif - we are not required to use Lifeway Sunday School material, we are not required to attend Association or Convention meetings - we are not even required to send funds to the Cooperagive program.

So on the other hand IFB churches ARE a denomination (just as the SBC) based on the 3rd definition - as we are a group of Baptists - with similiar doctrine beleifs.

IMHO - the main difference between IFB and SB's is the way we support missions

I have also started a thread about the missions support


Open for discussion.

 

[JonC]

I agree, @Salty.

The churches which come together to comprise SBC memberships are over (not subordinate to) the Convention. They are independent churches insofar as governance is concerned. They are also independent I sofar as missions and doctrine with the exception of exactly how much they choose to participate with SBC entities.

I have not attended a SBC church that uses Lifeway materials in years. All of the SBC churches I have attended focus on missions apart from the IMB while still supporting the IMB.

 

[Shoostie]

1. A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name,usually organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.

The SBC meets definition #1. SBC churches aren't under a legal hierarchy, but that isn't required for #1. (I disagree with the above definition that a denomination has to be "large", but the SBC is the largest protestant group in America.)

Being a member of the SBC does have some de facto requirements, such as being trinitarian, complimentarianism, and non-charismatic. There are lines of heresy and conduct which a member church can't cross without being pushed out. There's a lot of things the SBC provides that member churches can be involved in. If a church isn't participating at least a little in SBC activities, then it doesn't mean much to say it's a member of the SBC.

IFB churches don't have a formal denomination, but there are generally agreed to standards of what an IFB church is. If a church doesn't meet these standards, more or less, it would be dishonest for them to call themselves IFB. You can't have a woman pastor performing same-sex weddings and be IFB (or SBC).

 

[JonC]

The SBC meets definition #1. SBC churches aren't under a legal hierarchy, but that isn't required for #1. (I disagree with the above definition that a denomination has to be "large", but the SBC is the largest protestant group in America.)

Being a member of the SBC does have some de facto requirements, such as being trinitarian, complimentarianism, and non-charismatic. There are lines of heresy and conduct which a member church can't cross without being pushed out. There's a lot of things the SBC provides that member churches can be involved in. If a church isn't participating at least a little in SBC activities, then it doesn't mean much to say it's a member of the SBC.

IFB churches don't have a formal denomination, but there are generally agreed to standards of what an IFB church is. If a church doesn't meet these standards, more or less, it would be dishonest for them to call themselves IFB. You can't have a woman pastor performing same-sex weddings and be IFB (or SBC).

Many SBC churches do not have a common name (many do not call themselves SBC although they are in that they participate in the cooperative program).

I think the issue would be "usually organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy". SBC churches do not fall under a hierarchy (the SBC has no authority over a church). BUT the definition says "usually".

 

[Reynolds]

The discussion from Part 1

The first thing that independents will often say about the SBC (and other groups) is that they are subject to a denominational HQ.

First - lets look at the defintion of "denomination"

de·nom·i·na·tion
(dĭ-nŏm′ə-nā′shən)
n.
1. A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name,usually organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.
2. One of a series of kinds, values, or sizes, as in a system of currency or weights: Cashregisters have slots for bills of different denominations. The stamps come in 40¢ and 70¢denominations.
3. A name or designation, especially for a class or group.

Many will say that Southern Baptist would fall under the first definition - BUT the SBC does NOT have administrative and legal hierarchy. We are just as independent as a IFB church. Any cooeperation we have is strictly voluntairly - Contrary to populary beleif - we are not required to use Lifeway Sunday School material, we are not required to attend Association or Convention meetings - we are not even required to send funds to the Cooperagive program.

So on the other hand IFB churches ARE a denomination (just as the SBC) based on the 3rd definition - as we are a group of Baptists - with similiar doctrine beleifs.

IMHO - the main difference between IFB and SB's is the way we support missions

I have also started a thread about the missions support


Open for discussion.

Historically true. Recently the national convention is trying to assert power.

 

[Revmitchell]

The SBC is a cooperative not a denomination no matter how many people misuse that word. The SBC allows outside portions of the cooperative like local, state, and national conventions influence them. Independence are often adamantly against any outside influence of any kind.

The cooperative cooperates to do missions and those missionaries have compensation without coming to churches to beg for money.

Independent missionaries may lose support from any given church that receives a new pastor and the new pastor now has a new "vision" for the church that does not include support for said missionary.

 

[Salty]

Independent missionaries may lose support from any given church that receives a new pastor and the new pastor now has a new "vision" for the church that does not include support for said missionary.

A couple of years ago, I visited my (GARBC) home church - and the church, under the advice of the pastor dropped ALL missionaries from their budget ,including a missionary that was from our church.

 

[Shoostie]

The SBC is a cooperative not a denomination no matter how many people misuse that word. The SBC allows outside portions of the cooperative like local, state, and national conventions influence them. Independence are often adamantly against any outside influence of any kind.

So, your definition of a denomination is where there's outside influence? I believe the SBC does exert influence on member churches (see my previous post). Even if the SBC doesn't influence, why is your definition valid? And, even if the SBC doesn't influence, and your definition is valid, it's extremely vague and difficult to gauge for any group of churches. You remind me of my college, where my college insisted the dorms weren't dorms but were residences halls. It was more pretentiousness than anything else.

The Catholic Church denies being a denomination. Presbyterian Church USA churches select their own pastors and some do pretty much anything they want regardless of hierarchy, so PCUSA isn't a denomination either? There is a group of hundreds of Oneness Pentecostal churches who follow what they call "The Message" and follow the teachings of William Branham literally as God's word, many even just listen to his taped sermons and don't have a preaching pastor, they're not a denomination either?

Denomination
noun
1 a group having a distinctive interpretation of a religious faith and usually its own organization
2 a grade or unit in a series of designations of value, weight, measure, etc.: coins of this denomination are being withdrawn
3 a name given to a class or group; classification
4 the act of giving a name
5 a name; designation

The SBC is a denomination.

 

[Salty]

The SBC is a denomination.

Yes, I agree - just as IFB'ers are a denomination - collectively all Baptists are a denomination as we have similar beliefs.
and we all have the same name - BAPTIST!
On one hand you say the SBC exerits influence - on the other you say they dont - so which is it.
All I know is that the SBC, (national. State or local) does not exert any influence over us .
Its more of reccomendations - and often they have good advice.

Yes, the SBC - does have the Baptist Faith and Statement - but some churches go by it 100 % others not so much.

Shoostie, just curious - what brand of Baptist are you?


The reason the RC believes they are not a denomination -is because they believe they are the orginal church going back to Pope Peter I

 

[Rob_BW]

Historically true. Recently the national convention is trying to assert power.

Bureaucracies tend to do that, grow and consume more resources, if not kept in check.

 

[Salty]

Bureaucracies tend to do that, grow and consume more resources, if not kept in check.

and thats why it is important for local churches to be involved.

 

[Revmitchell]

So, your definition of a denomination is where there's outside influence? I believe the SBC does exert influence on member churches (see my previous post). Even if the SBC doesn't influence, why is your definition valid? And, even if the SBC doesn't influence, and your definition is valid, it's extremely vague and difficult to gauge for any group of churches. You remind me of my college, where my college insisted the dorms weren't dorms but were residences halls. It was more pretentiousness than anything else.

The Catholic Church denies being a denomination. Presbyterian Church USA churches select their own pastors and some do pretty much anything they want regardless of hierarchy, so PCUSA isn't a denomination either? There is a group of hundreds of Oneness Pentecostal churches who follow what they call "The Message" and follow the teachings of William Branham literally as God's word, many even just listen to his taped sermons and don't have a preaching pastor, they're not a denomination either?

Denomination
noun
1 a group having a distinctive interpretation of a religious faith and usually its own organization
2 a grade or unit in a series of designations of value, weight, measure, etc.: coins of this denomination are being withdrawn
3 a name given to a class or group; classification
4 the act of giving a name
5 a name; designation

The SBC is a denomination.

I didn't say that was my definition so your point is moot

 

[Shoostie]

Membership in any denomination is voluntary. Most denominations actually have little influence on the behavior of their member churches. The difference between the SBC and PCUSA (the largest Presbyterian denomination) isn't the strength of the denomination, it's the traditions of the two denominations apart from the influence of the denomination.

I can't really think of anything the PCUSA has imposed on to any congregation. If your PCUSA church doesn't approve of women ministers, don't elect one. If your PCUSA church decides it doesn't want to be part of a denomination that represents apostasy, just leave the denomination.

I don't know much about PCUSA. While you can choose not to elect a female for minister, maybe you're now allowed to teach women shouldn't be pastors. I don't know if that's the case, but even if it were, the SBC doesn't allow member churches teach various things. And, if a IFB church adopts doctrines contrary to IFB standards, it'll no longer be an IFB church. If your PCUSA church teaches something PCUSA doesn't allow, then the only difference between IFB and PCUSA is a little paperwork to reach the divorce.

 

[Salty]

Membership in any denomination is voluntary. Most denominations actually have little influence on the behavior of their member churches. The difference between the SBC and PCUSA (the largest Presbyterian denomination) isn't the strength of the denomination, it's the traditions of the two denominations apart from the influence of the denomination.

I can't really think of anything the PCUSA has imposed on to any congregation. If your PCUSA church doesn't approve of women ministers, don't elect one. If your PCUSA church decides it doesn't want to be part of a denomination that represents apostasy, just leave the denomination.

I don't know much about PCUSA. While you can choose not to elect a female for minister, maybe you're now allowed to teach women shouldn't be pastors. I don't know if that's the case, but even if it were, the SBC doesn't allow member churches teach various things. And, if a IFB church adopts doctrines contrary to IFB standards, it'll no longer be an IFB church. If your PCUSA church teaches something PCUSA doesn't allow, then the only difference between IFB and PCUSA is a little paperwork to reach the divorce.

Evidently you dont know much about the IFB!

 

[Shoostie]

Evidently you dont know much about the IFB!

I'm wrong about there being no denominational paperwork for in IFB to stop being an IFB church?

 

[Salty]

I'm wrong about there being no denominational paperwork for in IFB to stop being an IFB church?

The thing about being IFB - is that since there is no official organization - anyone can call themselves IFB! and there is nothing another IFB can do about some church (ie Westboro) calling themselves IFB!

 

[Shoostie]

The thing about being IFB - is that since there is no official organization - anyone can call themselves IFB! and there is nothing another IFB can do about some church (ie Westboro) calling themselves IFB!

IFB means something or it doesn't. Just because someone uses it inappropriately doesn't make it meaningless.

 

[Reynolds]

IFB means something or it doesn't. Just because someone uses it inappropriately doesn't make it meaningless.

What do you think it "means"?

 

[Shoostie]

What do you think it "means"?

I trust no one around here will use the term IFB anymore, as I'm the only one who thinks it means anything.

 

[Reynolds]

I trust no one around here will use the term IFB anymore, as I'm the only one who thinks it means anything.

Tell us what it means. We can then be enlightened.