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Diploma Mill how do you judge one?

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by revmwc, Jul 9, 2011.

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  1. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    So lets just sit in a chair and not do anything.

    Of course, nowhere does the scriptures say God "poofs" such things upon individuals, but instead has entrusted such training to the church; the older, training the younger.
     
    #21 Havensdad, Jul 9, 2011
  2. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    That is where many of these schools originated from the church and the Pastors who saw a need and opened up schools.
    I was raised in a church where the Pastor taught verse by verese point by point. He was a faithful pastor and studied God's word to gain knowledge and teach the things he had learned. That was the 60's and 70's he would have a very hard time pastoring any church today without a degree, that is a travesty.
     
    #22 revmwc, Jul 9, 2011
  3. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Yep. And they call that "experience." Its very important. But it is different than formal education.There is also knowledge and study methods, which must be "taught." School gives you skills you WONT get through experience.

    Actually, Jesus instructed his disciples according to the normal, accepted methods of the day. Jesus followed the rabbinical method. However, you have not walked with Jesus in the flesh...WE are supposed to be instructed by teachers before us, and then we instruct those who come after. Thats how it works.

    No, you have not. You have earned experience, which is very important. You put it on your resume, tell pastor search committees about it, etc. It is very helpful.

    But to "double dip" and say that you have the experience, AND the degree, is false. You have one or the other. If two people have experienced the same amount, for the same period, but one has put in ADDITIONAL effort, to get a degree, one has put in more effort than the other.

    Imagine for a moment that a church is looking for a pastor. You, and your friend, both have 20 years of experience. But your friend, wanting extra "polishing" of his abilities, earns a D. Min. from an accredited Seminary. He works himself to the bone, doing both his pastoral duties, and his doctorate studies, and earns the degree.

    You come along, and, not wanting to be upstaged, apply to an unnaccredited degree mill, who gives you a D.Min. for your "life experience." Is it equivalent? Absolutely not! Your friend put in the EXTRA work to get a legitimate degree. You chose a quick path, and in effect are "lying," saying you did the same thing as your friend, when you didn't.

    All very valuable. But different from earning a degree.

    Actually, that is not accurate. For the first 1900 years of church history, organized schooling was EXTREMELY important. Only for the last 100 years has it become acceptable to go into the ministry without education.

    In fact, the word "Doctor," originally referred to one who was educated in the scriptures. The formal system we have today, was invented by Christians, based on scriptural principles, and was for the express purpose of training theologians and ministers.

    God will never lead us to do things which are dishonest. We are not Mormons. We do not rely on a "burning in our bosom." We are commanded to speak plainly, and truthfully.

    I am NOT saying that your experience is inferior. I am saying that it is not a degree. I am in the opposite position that you are. I only have 4 years of experience, but I have a Master of Divinity degree. It would be completely dishonest for me to tell a search committee that "I have 7 years of experience," (counting the years that it took for me to get my degree). That is double dipping. Even though a lot of churches won't consider me for a pastorate, because I don't have at least 5 years of experience.

    In the same way, it is dishonest to use life experience degrees to "double dip."
     
    #23 Havensdad, Jul 9, 2011
  4. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    I will not debate this any longer with you. As I don't like being called a SINNER and a LIAR so i will stop so there will be no more personal attacks on me.
     
    #24 revmwc, Jul 9, 2011
  5. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    I didn't call you anything. I said saying you have a degree when you have not earned one, is lying. That was a very general statement, and can hardly be argued against (Isn't lying saying something that is not true?)

    If I print a Masters Degree certificate, but have not done the requisite work, am I not STILL lying when I say I have a degree?

    There have been no personal attacks. But I don't claim to have your experience, which I have not earned, so i would appreciate it if you returned the favor with my degrees.
     
    #25 Havensdad, Jul 9, 2011
  6. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    I stated "Believe me I earned the degree with all the experience I have in over 26 years in the ministry and 36 years in working in the world."

    Your post #23 in answer to that,
    "No, you have not. You have earned experience, which is very important. You put it on your resume, tell pastor search committees about it, etc. It is very helpful.

    But to "double dip" and say that you have the experience, AND the degree, is false. You have one or the other. If two people have experienced the same amount, for the same period, but one has put in ADDITIONAL effort, to get a degree, one has put in more effort than the other. In the same way, it is dishonest to use life experience degrees to "double dip."

    This is calling me dishonest.

    Post #14 by you " The school awarded you "life experience" credits, really? 32 HOURS? And you don't see a problem with that? In my opinion, claiming to have a degree which you have not earned, is lying."

    Here you call me a liar and saying I haven;t earned it.
     
    #26 revmwc, Jul 9, 2011
  7. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    As Havensdad noted, experience is not equivalent to formal education. Many colleges do accept a limited number of credits through life experience, but this experience must be substantiated by submitting portfolios, challenge exams, or some other methods. One can gain a college-level knowledge of a subject through experience, but it is possible to have experience without having sufficient knowledge of the subject matter.

    For instance, a man may argue with his wife for 30 years, but that doesn't give him credits in conflict management or rhetoric.


    Exactly, school is not the place for this kind of knowledge. That's why we don't have a transcript for one's relationship with God.

    Education is a requirement. If one can obtain a sufficient education through alternate means, then that is perfectly acceptable. It is not, however, the same as a formal course of education. A degree isn't only about the subject matter. It is a method of certification by the institution that an individual has satisfactorily completed a course of study. It's a third-party verification of sorts.


    If churches won't consider a non-degreed pastor, how did you get all of your experience?
     
    #27 StefanM, Jul 9, 2011
  8. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Exactly. You have NOT earned a degree, if a large percentage of your "credits" were given to you because of experience. There is a reason why only degree mills do this.

    That is not attacking you. That is stating a fact.

    No. I am stating my opinion...an opinion that is based in fact. Are you saying that it is NOT lying to say you have a degree when you really don't?
     
    #28 Havensdad, Jul 10, 2011
  9. michaelbowe

    michaelbowe Member

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    I would have to do further research. I would want to know what detail are these papers written, meaning do you write 10 one page papers, or 10 full length, adequately researched papers at a length matching the degree. If I were to look into the school the first red flag to me would be its affiliation only, why not get accredited? What is the hold back? If it was due to money, that is understandable, but I would want to know. I would also research where the faculty gained their credentials, while you say they are from outside schools, are the credentials accredited? If not, are they from good schools, or diploma mills?

    I was simply trying to give a general idea of what I look for in a institution.
     
    #29 michaelbowe, Jul 10, 2011
  10. michaelbowe

    michaelbowe Member

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    I would have to answer the same as I did earlier, I do not know. I would have to look more into the programs. I do not like that the entire class is based upon lectures on a CD. That does not spell out rigor to me. It does not seem to challenge. It seems I can go listen to several sermons, or online lectures and obtain the same information.

    When a school obtains a unrecognized accreditation I always have issue with it, because they can advertise "get an accredited degree." The reason these accreditation people are not recognized is because they do not hold the institution to a higher standard. Obtaining a lesser accreditation give me issue because it seems to be deceptive. I think if a school is unaccredited by a national or regional accreditation company, i.e. tracs, ats, or any regional accredited agency, just say so. Tyndale Seminary says we will not, nor ever seek accreditation. That is up front and honest! I think UA schools should just say so instead of trying to justify.
     
    #30 michaelbowe, Jul 10, 2011
  11. michaelbowe

    michaelbowe Member

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    While I would have to look on the website for the specific citation,SACS requires that a large percentage of professors at an institution must have completed their terminal degrees somewhere other than where they are teaching. Moreover, TRACS and ATS does the same. I am sure institutions are allowed some room to hire their own graduates, but it is generally frowned on because of its lack of diversification.
     
    #31 michaelbowe, Jul 10, 2011
  12. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    One more time for those that say it isn't working hard.
    3 hours Speech at public shool in classroom
    3 hours English comp andrhetoric exteded study @ a public school 3 or test and a final which I had to go to the school to with about 10 each 3 page papers written at home and dropped off at school.
    3 hours Health at public college in classroom
    3 hours intro Physics in classroom at public school
    HPER skills (physical education) public school under coaches supervision
    1 hour Surv of Phys ED. public school classroom
    4 hours MsXcel independent study text book work with assignements and final assignment public college.
    4 hours MsAcess independet study text book work with assignements and final assignements public college.
    that makes 21 hours some transfer to an accredited some don't.

    56 hours at a bible institute with lectures and finals.
    The 8 hrs from the 17 makes the 64 for the associates degree.

    Thats makes 77 total to get associates.

    32 hours distance learning course from a bible university.

    2 units social studies = 6 hrs
    2 units science = 6hrs
    2 units U.S. History = 6 hrs
    2 units english = 6hrs
    1 elective = 3 hrs
    workshops 4 each = 3 hrs
    orienrtation = 2hrs
    total 32 hours

    leaving 19 to be life experience credited for the visitation and outreach courses needed.

    Let's look at the total hours
    in classrooms
    13 public school
    56 bible institute
    independent study public school
    8 public school
    so 77 and 64 credited to the Associates
    Bible univerity
    19 life experience such as outreach, visitation and that type of experience as a pastor.
    that makes 96
    then 29 at home extended studies as shown above.
    making 125
    3 for workshops 12 hours of lectures.
    making the 128 for bachelors.

    Don't tell me I haven't worked for my degree all of the above with the exception of 13 hours was while married, working and in various bi-vo ministry positions.
     
    #32 revmwc, Jul 10, 2011
  13. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    Old Addage?!!

    Hello all!

    All know how I feel and the topic seems to have been (is being) covered extremely well.

    But a couple of addages/bromides come to mind. How does that go now:

    "There are none so blind as those who will not (or is it cannot?) see!

    And:

    "Me thinks the brother protests too much!"

    For what it is worth?! :laugh:

    "That is all!"

    PS. I read the post after I submitted it. And in all fairness it seems mean-spirited and sarcastic!! I repent. Please forgive and accept my apology??!!!
     
    #33 Rhetorician, Jul 10, 2011
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  14. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Well when one is falsely accused of being a liar and deceiver I should have not commented and been as a lamb ging to slaughter.
    So forgive me for defending myself.
     
    #34 revmwc, Jul 10, 2011
  15. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    revmwc reply

    Dear Brother revmwc;

    It seems to me that neither the tone, tenor, nor language used is going to bring you "to the slaughter." There is a major difference in saying that something someone said is untrue and calling the one who said it a "liar." One concerns what was said, the other attacks the person who said it and the intent of why they said it. Please think through this logically.

    A major example of this might be; if I call someone a "fool," or say that they are acting "foolishly." Bid difference!!

    And I am sure that you REALLY do not equate any number of years of experience in the pastoral ministry with being equal to having a certain degree from a rigorous Regionally Accredited institution, be it BA / BS, Masters, or Doctoral degree? Do you?

    Tell me that you do not think the two are equal, please tell me that? Or please tell me that you do not believe that the "pastoral experience" is superior to the "formal education?"

    If one were to admit that a number of years in the pastoral ministry were equal to a formal degree in ministry training, I for one, would ponder how that person, who came to that end could have arrived there?

    This is, of course, only one many's opinion. :laugh:

    "That is all!?
     
    #35 Rhetorician, Jul 10, 2011
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  16. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    I know or have known many a Great pastors who never had a day of college or bible college in their lives. I know a few who have come out of school and after pastoring several years have become great men of God. But I know others who have come out of school who know nothing of God's word as it should be effectively preached and taught.
    The ones who had no formal education could out preach, out teach and out do most of those young men coming out of any Bible College of today. These men were called of God and studied everything they could get their hands on to find the truth. Commentary upon commentary comparing it to the scripture.
    The churches they pastored had more unity and more folks working together to build the church than most of the churches today.
    They preached and taught with clarity and may not have been grammatically correct in everything they said or wrote but they could preach and knew how to lead a church.
    So yes on the job pastoral experience is greater than the seminary that puts men in pulipits with no idea of what God's word is about nor how to preach or teach the word in season and out of season. Men who nothing about making through hard times and trouble thrown their way by satan, because the heat will get turned up on them and most will walk away.
    The men I knew could stand up preach a sermon for when called on without preparation the average seminary graduate has to have nearly a week to pull everything together. They check this and that and make sure there message is gramatically correct and leave God behind because their schooling overrides what the Holy Spirit gives them to say. Then they preach for an hour chasing a rabbit. Round and round the subject never getting to the point.
    The knowledge of God's word those men had would be far superior to any lessons taught in bible seminaries or universities. Since our world in now education centered more than on the job training of the 50's to 70's and if you weren't raised in that time you just can't understand how that works, but my father and his generation would understand it perfectly, and most of my generation knows what I am talkingabout. Most of the older generation of today if pressed would tell you they would rather have someone who knows the word and gained experience than one that is college trained and has no knowledge of what it takes to guide a church.
    I can be asked to bring a message with no advance notice and find a message to preach. I can also prepare a message with a day's notice and no school taught me how to do that. That comes from experience and hard work in pastoring and supplying and teaching sunday school. Whatever the Lord leads on to do.

    Of course we were taken of the OP in this with those who think education is everything and must put down anyone they feel doesn't measure up to there standard of education.
    Now to those who have a rule of thumb for how to tell a diploma mill and how not to thank you for your opinon. To those who have suggestions for a rule of thumb and haven't responded please get us back on track.
     
    #36 revmwc, Jul 10, 2011
  17. Rhetorician

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    revmwc response

    Dear Brother:

    You can be assured that you have completely misunderstood what I have meant. But as a college teacher of Interpersonal Communication and Speech with many, many years of experience; I take full responsibility for our "failure to communicate."

    Once again I am sorry for the misunderstanding and any confusion or frustration I may have caused you personally. I did not mean to cast any negative light on your experience or ability or integrity or learning. Please forgive--once again! I pray! :praying:

    "That is all!"
     
    #37 Rhetorician, Jul 10, 2011
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  18. Rhetorician

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    revmwc response

    Brother Rev.

    The criteria I use is:

    1. I look at the doctoral degrees of the persons with whom I want to study.

    2. I look at the total number of terminal doctorates on staff.

    3. What is the ratio of those who are teaching who have earned doctorates from reputable institutions to those who are teaching who are teaching with only a masters degree "in hand."

    4. Is the institution Regionally Accredited (RA).

    5. If it is a graduate or professional school, does it have accreditation from the professional accrediting agency like the Association of Theological Schools (ATS) that accredits theological schools in NAmerica.

    6. Does it have both accreditations? If not? Why not?

    7. I look to see where the people who teach received their doctorates?

    8. Et al.

    "That is all!" :thumbs:
     
    #38 Rhetorician, Jul 10, 2011
  19. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Thank that was the OP as to my rant on #36 was not directed at you. It was a rant as to how things are today. Our society has changed since the fifties to seventies. While once men who were called to preach did sobased on their knowledge of scripture and examination by an ordination board. Today we see men called to preach and yet they aren't allowed to fill pulpits to get that training. Instead the first thing they are expected to do is attend seminary. While at seminary they gain book knowledge but that fails to give them hands on experience.
    I work construction and I see yopung men who want to become craftsmen. The comamnies they work for offer training by supervisors to teach them the math and the things required for becoming a craftsman. That was only a part of my training when I began the classroom instruction was not as important as the knowledge gained from the craftsman I worked with as a helper.
    For instance and this may be foriegn to a lot of you guys. If we had a run of 6" pipe which was 12 Linear feet with two 90 degree elbows on it, we would need to subtract the dimensions of the 90's from end to center line. Today they are taught this in a class my craftsman taught me. The 90 degree elbow from center to end is 9" therefore two of them would be 18" or 1' - 6" which we would be subtracted from the 12 linear feet. The run of pipe would need to be 10' - 6"s. That math was on the job training and a part of my life experience. Many folks don't realize just what a construction craftsman needs to know about math and metalurgy. Valuable hands on life experience and yet it was said life experience doesn't equate to knowledge enough to equal to work needed for a degree.
     
    #39 revmwc, Jul 10, 2011
  20. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    Rev Response

    Dear Bro. Rev,

    For the record I served an 8000 hr Steamfitter Union, National Dept. of Labor Apprenticeship. We worked with skilled journeymen and I went to class 2 nights per week for 4 years. I also studied, metalurgy (sp), welding, mathematics, steam pressure issues, and a myriad of other subjects in order to pass the qualifying examinations to become a "Certified Building Trades Journeyman Steamfitter." And at the time I went through the program many a college grad wanted to go through the program with us.

    FTY, I still retain my Journeyman Steamfitter card and work at the trade from time to time.

    "That is all!"
     
    #40 Rhetorician, Jul 10, 2011
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