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Disagreements about the Atonement
- Thread starter JonC
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
You ever wonder how the actual wicked got wicked? Like maybe at some point they did something wicked?
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The reason I know that @JonC knows he is losing the discussion is that he is becoming more and more shrill and personal, and less and less Biblical.
I do indeed thank God with all my heart that the Lord Jesus has taken away my sin by paying the full atonement for them on the cross. One reason for this is that I know that I am a sinner, saved at terrible cost by the grace of God.
I am not the only sinner on this board. If @JonC has not joined with John and Charles Wesley in subscribing to their belief in 'sinless perfection,' he will know that he is one also. Due to the atoning death of Christ, His resurrection and ascension, believers receive the Holy Spirit (John 16:7; Acts 2:33 again!) and we are born anew. But that does not make is sinless. 'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us, but if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all iniquity' What cleanses us from iniquity? Walking in the light? No! Because we don't do it perfectly. It is the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all iniquity.
We are saved by the blood of Christ. 'There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.' But for that very reason, Paul tells us, 'Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire and covetousness which is idolatry' (Col. 3:5). But however imperfectly, we do this not in order to be saved, but because we are saved! Read Romans 7:7-25. Paul ends up, 'For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wrethched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God - through Jesus Christ my Lord.'
Now there's stuff in those verses that would be good to discuss on another thread, but now, long after my bedtime, I just want to point out what debters to mercy we are. We all fall short in many ways (James 3:2), and it is no use saying as @JonC does, " We must die to sin. We must "die to the flesh". We must "put away our old self". We cannot do these things perfectly, and it is only because the Lord Jesus has paid for all our sins, past, present and future, that we shall be kept out of He. I repeat what I have said many times before: if Christ has not paid in full for our sins, we shall have to pay for them ourselves.
@Martin Marprelate
You do not understand.
I am saying that those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers , and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
At Judgment (this is what makes Scrioture different from Wesley's position) we will be perfected....we will be righteous. We will be made into His image.
This is the direct work of the cross.
We will not stand before God as wicked but forgiven souls. We will have died to sin, put away the "old self", been conformed to the image of Christ.
The Atonement is not an accounting loophole. God will never clear the wicked. God will never punish the righteous.
God recreates man.
The law does not make one a sinner. The law does not make one righteous.
Jesus is not righteous because He obeyed the law. Jesus fulfilled the law because He is righteous.
If God told you the depth of the cross you would reject His words. Because He did. And you did.
Christ's blood shed for us is so much more than you are allowing.
The Atonement was not a controversial topic for the first thousand years of our faith. Your theory did not exist. Anselm's theory (upon which yours was developed) did not exist.
The reason is the Atonement is basic. It is the "bones" supporting the body. God's words were taken a truth. And it is foundational to our faith.
Christians accepted God's words on the cross and moved on to maturity, to less basic things. You cannot do this if you exchange God's words for your theory. You will remain immature in the faith.
The cross is tge reconciliation of God and man - NOT merely an act of accounting so that the wicked will not be held accountable for their wickedness.
No, the wicked did not become wicked when they did wickedness. The Bible addresses this.
In Galatians 5 the wickedness is a result of men being wicked (sins are "fruits" of one in the flesh, a mind set on the flesh).
But this does explain why Calvinists focus so much on removing accountability rather than being conformed into the image of Christ.
The Elect at judgment will not be wicked souls who have had another account for their wickedness.
The cross is more substantial than you allow.
This thread is discussing two disagreements.
@Martin Marprelate views the cross as God as transferring our accountability for our actions to Christ, Christ suffering the punishment, and thus clearing man.
I view the cross as God reconciling man to Himself, not counting our sins against us, Christ being this reconciliation of God and man, the guarantor of a better covenant. In Christ we are predestined to be made like Him, predestined to righteousness and glory.
@Martin Marprelate views my view, that at Judgment God will have accomplished a work in us that conforms us to Christ's image, as Wesleyan theology.
@DaveXR650 holds that men become wicked when they sin. Therefore the problem of man is man's actions.
I believe that our sins are fruits of our wickedness (Gal 5), that we sin because we are wicked. Therefore the problem of man is man.
@Martin Marprelate views the cross as God as transferring our accountability for our actions to Christ, Christ suffering the punishment, and thus clearing man.
I view the cross as God reconciling man to Himself, not counting our sins against us, Christ being this reconciliation of God and man, the guarantor of a better covenant. In Christ we are predestined to be made like Him, predestined to righteousness and glory.
@Martin Marprelate views my view, that at Judgment God will have accomplished a work in us that conforms us to Christ's image, as Wesleyan theology.
@DaveXR650 holds that men become wicked when they sin. Therefore the problem of man is man's actions.
I believe that our sins are fruits of our wickedness (Gal 5), that we sin because we are wicked. Therefore the problem of man is man.
The reason this is important to discuss is where we start depends on where we end.
If @DaveXR650 is right and we become wicked because of our actions then our actions are what the Atonement needs to address.
If I am right and the problem is our nature then our nature is what the Atonement needs to address.
If @Martin Marprelate is right and what we need is another to take accountability for our actions in order to remove accountability from us then his view is on the right path.
If I am right and what we need is a Savior to reconcile us (not our actions but us) to God then my view is on the right path.
Given these two positiins we need to discuss whether our actions make us who we are or whether who we are dictates our actions.
We need to discuss whether the problem of man is the things we do (sins) or our very nature (of the flesh rather than of the Spirit).
When we differ in answering these types of questions we come up with views of the atonement that are very different.
If @DaveXR650 is right and we become wicked because of our actions then our actions are what the Atonement needs to address.
If I am right and the problem is our nature then our nature is what the Atonement needs to address.
If @Martin Marprelate is right and what we need is another to take accountability for our actions in order to remove accountability from us then his view is on the right path.
If I am right and what we need is a Savior to reconcile us (not our actions but us) to God then my view is on the right path.
Given these two positiins we need to discuss whether our actions make us who we are or whether who we are dictates our actions.
We need to discuss whether the problem of man is the things we do (sins) or our very nature (of the flesh rather than of the Spirit).
When we differ in answering these types of questions we come up with views of the atonement that are very different.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
First of all, you shouldn't start a new thread using a quote from someone else as the first post. That is misleading and I thought against the rules. But anyway:
No. And this is your constant technique. Take something someone else says, remold it into a different meaning, and then brilliantly attack the new meaning you gave it. You said "the problem is not the actions of the wicked but the actual wicked". My point, and it is correct, is that the actual wicked do wicked deeds. I was not saying that the actions of the wicked are not preceded by wicked intentions coming from a wicked heart. Nor did I say that God is not going to judge wickedness as a sin also. But, if you read Puritans, or ever looked at a confession, you would have known that because those things are addressed. You bring up Galatians 5 which in verse 21 does list character but ends by saying " those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God". Galatians 6:7 says "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap".
I Corinthians chapter 6 discusses this, lists what people will not inherit the kingdom of God. People are listed as their label of character, based upon their committed deeds. Do not take my post, refuting another of your ridiculous assertions, and go off on another tangent which has nothing to do with your aberrant view of the Atonement.
So this is not what we need to discuss professor. It's not what I was talking about (which you have misrepresented in the original post) and it is clearly put in scripture and in confessions that man is a sinner, and man is a "doer" of sins, which have direct consequences. Both are taught. And therefore you were incorrect when you said "it is not the actions of wicked men" that is the problem. Let's stop the rabbit trails and address the fact that scripture explicitly says Jesus bare our sins in his own body on the tree. Either stick to the point, start another thread of your own origin, or explain how that verse does not include deeds.
Isn't starting "a new thread using a quote from someone else as the first post" what YOU just did?
One of the stranger features of @JonC's theology is that he seems to be clearer on what other people believe than he is about what he himself believes. I don't recall using the word "accountability" in any of my posts but that has not deterred him from claiming that I believe it.
However, let's get to the Scriptures. Isaiah 53:6. 'All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him [Christ] the iniquity of us all.' Note that it is not our "accountability," nor, in the light of @JonC's post #4. our sinfulness that is laid upon our Lord, but the sins themselves. Now this is Scripture; it is not @JonC's philosophy. Our sins were laid upon the Lord Jesus, and according to 1 Peter 2:24, He bore them in His own body. This can only mean that He paid the penalty for them (c.f. Isaiah 53:5, of course).
Now that does not change our sinful nature, but it does ake away our sins and enables God justly to see us as sinless (Heb. 10:17-18).
But God does not leave us where He finds us. Once His justice has been satisfied, Christ returns to heaven, and the Holy Spirit is poured our giving us that new heart and new spirit. But we are not made sinless. @JonC wrote on the previous thread, "We must die to sin. We must "die to the flesh". We must "put away our old self". This is an error. It has already happened through our union with Christ (Romans 6:1-2; Gal. 2:20). However, there is a remnant of sin that dwells, not in the essential us (Rom. 7:17, 20), but in our bodies, our flesh (v.18), and this sin is what is constantly seeking to bring us down, and we have to be utterly ruthless in putting it to death (Col. 3:1-10). But battle as we will, we will never put this sin utterly to death. In this life, we shall always be debtors to mercy (1 John 1:7-2:2). When Christ returns, of course, and we receive our new resurrection bodied, we shall, of course be finished with sin forever. I explained all this in more detail in the previous thread.
This is quite right, but only because Christ has taken away our sins.
I have been looking for the post where I wondered if you were into Wesleyan perfectionism, but I can't seem to find it. But what led me to wonder was your statement that "We must die to sin. We must "die to the flesh". We must "put away our old self". This seemed to me to be a form of prectionism, not to mention salvation by works.
No doubt @DaveXR650 will answer for himself, but I think you are in error to try to separate sins too far from sinfulness. We sin because we are sinful; we are sinful because we sin. But as I wrote above, 'And the LORD has laid our iniquities [sins, not sinfulness] on Him.' 'He Himself bore our sins [not sinfulness] in His own body on the tree.'
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
No Deacon. This is why I'm complaining. I did not start this thread.
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
One thing I have noticed is that when I try to be open minded and read theologians who like to explore all the inclusive and multifaceted aspects of the atonement you get into the problem @JonC illustrates on these threads. It seems that when we do that there is a danger of neglecting the actual taking of our sin upon Christ. Most don't go so far as denying this to be true, but there is a preference for the more ethereal and corporate aspects to be emphasized. Blood being shed of the most Holy One for our actual sins is gut wrenchingly humbling, especially when you are forced to take it personally, not corporately, and not with a theological or cosmic vagueness, that keeps us all in the same boat.
I urge everyone on here, to look up and read theologians who are against penal substitution. Read what they say, and even more importantly, read what else they say about other Christian theology and decide for yourself where you think they are coming from. You will become very concerned if you do this and understand why John Owen said that denial of penal substitution is a damnable heresy and why J. C. Ryle said it is the "core" of Christianity.
I didn't. I started it with post #5.
I actually was trying to discuss a point he and Martin brought up.
I did it, but post 1 should have been post 5.
No clue how that happened.
You are distracting from the actual subject.
Where we end up on our view of Atonement depends on where we start.
You said men become wicked when they sin. So your assumption is that our sins are the problem Atonement addresses.
I believe that sins are manifestations of our wickedness . So I believe the problem addressed by the Atonement is our nature.
Our views of the law also relates to this disagreement.
I view the law as unable to make one righteous or unrighteous. Instead the law is like a schoolmaster. It shows us our sins and we know we fall short of God's glory based on this "fruit".
Calvinists here have explained thar God imputes Christ's law keeping to us. They have explained that Jesus was made righteous through His keeping of the law.
If our actions is the problem of man then they could be right.
But I believe that Jesus is righteous, which is why He fulfills the law and why we fulfill the law in Him. We will be conformed to His image. We will actually be righteous.
So rather than ad hominem why not discuss the topic?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Where we end up on the Atonement is directly related to where we are on other things. I still have not found any theologian who denies PSA and is sound otherwise. That is not changing the subject or ad hominem attack.
No one is denying that our sins are a manifestation of what we are. That's why I don't like the way you started a new thread with me appearing to take that position, falsely, when I was answering an incorrect post you had made where you specifically denied that what we do matters. I get tired of you trying to obscure things with side arguments. Both things are in play. You do because of what you are and what you are is blameable because of what you do.
After all your lecturing on how you only use the Bible this is astounding. Jesus bore our nature in his own body on the cross I guess. Except that's not what it says. If you would humble yourself enough to realize that previous generations may have actually thought through some of these things you would realize that if you looked at a systematic theology, or if you just would keep all the other scriptures in your mind at the same time, you would understand that we indeed are given new natures, that we indeed must consciously repent and believe and avoid sin and pursue holiness or else we will not be saved - and, that at the Atonement Christ bore our sins in his own body on the cross. One being true does not make the other false.
This is precisely why you need to be careful about being a loner and developing your own private theology. There is a personal aspect of Bible study where you read scripture and with the help of the Holy Spirit improve your Christian life, find sin in your life, and become a better Christian. But if you find yourself developing a completely new theology at least pause and look into what others are saying before plunging in. If you don't you might just end up with the guys I find speaking out against PSA on the internet. Without exception, so far, they seem goofy and on dangerous ground in other areas.
I always think of my own favorite Puritan, Richard Baxter. As much as I have been helped by his practical writings, he, in trying to combat antinomianism, got so far off theologically that it caused huge problems later on.
OK. I notice it was Ken who used accountability (he presented this as imputation also). Sorry if I took his comments as yours.
You believe that God takes our sins and puts those sins on Jesus.
Let's look at your idea. Let's narrow it down to one person (I will use myself as an example) and one sin you think was put on Jesus.
When I was 8 years old I stole a pack of gum. God took that action from me and put it on Jesus, literally (not accountability).
Obviously under the law Jesus would have to pay the store at least the price of the gum. But I am not interested in that part.
I want to know how, if not by accountability (not accounting for sin) that action became a material thing that could be moved around.
How did that sin literally get taken from me and put on Jesus if not by accountability because that sin was an action which can only be dealt with via accountability.
Exactly. That is why it is so important a topic. And that is why I believe we have to believe God's actual words on this one.
It is what I have called a "foundational" doctrine because other doctrines are built upon and depend on this one. So this is important to discuss. We are agreed on that anyway.
In terms of defending my position that sins are the fruits of our nature I offer
Matthew 3:8-10. Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. 9And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Galatians 5:16-21 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the desire of the flesh is against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, in order to keep you from doing whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, ... and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Matthew 7:17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Romans 8:9 Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
What evidence do you have that the "problem" of man is not man's nature but man's behavior (that one becomes wicked when they do wicked things)?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
37818
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 15:22, For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
John 19:28, . . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . . .
Hebrews 10:10, By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.