Discerning God' will

This is the worst book on the will of God. Freissen sets up a straw man in Part 1 which he calls the "traditional view" in which he totally ignores the matter of prayer and the places in Acts where God directly leads His servants through the Holy Spirit. Then he demolishes his straw man without touching anything I believe from the Bible about the will of God. (Caveat: someone said on the BB that Friessen deals with some of the criticism in his second edition, but I only have the first.)

I suggest instead Finding the Will of God by Dr. Bruce Walthe. His approach is based on Ps. 37:4, and is far more Scriptural than Friessen, who would have us believe that God sits up in Heaven saying, "Hey, bro, anything you want to do is fine with me. Marry anyone, do anything with your life. It's okay!" God is our Heavenly Father, and as a father let me say that I am interested in every aspect of my son's life--I'm so proud of him and love him so much that I can't comprehend the view of a God who doesn't seem to care what we do with our lives as long as we are happy.

Friesen also pooh-poohs the traditional view of the call of God, saying that the call of God in the Bible is always supernatural revelation (p. 313). Ridiculous! Was Elisha's call supernatural? Matthew's? Don't even get me started!

 

This is the source of our disagreement. While I agree completely that God speaks to us through the Written Word. I do not believe you can limit His speaking to the Written Word. 2 Tim 3:16-17 does not claim that at all. In fact the testimony of Scripture is that God uses a variety of methods to communicate with His children. We serve the same God today as in the Bible, and He still uses a variety of ways to communicate to His children.

 

I would have problems with this book since he does not agree with the traditional view of the call of God. But I look forward to picking it up as well as the Walthe book to read.

Thanks for your thoughts John. I especially appreciate the post about George Mueller. I think he shares some very wise words that all of us would be wise to heed.

 

I agree completely with PastorSBC1303. How in the world can the peace of God be considered revelation? If it is, then we have to throw out the 103 places in the NT (not to mention precious OT passages such as Is. 26:3) that peace is mentioned as not being for anyone past the book of Revelation, and I find that to be a very sad teaching.

 

From reading the reviews at Amazon, it looks like Gary Friesson has some good advice for us.

 

Easton's Bible Dictionary: "Revelation and inspiration differ. Revelation is the supernatural communication of truth to the mind; inspiration (q.v.) secures to the teacher or writer infallibility in communicating that truth to others. It renders its subject the spokesman or prophet of God in such a sense that everything he asserts to be true, whether fact or doctrine or moral principle, is true, infallibly true."

When I have the peace of God in my heart, it is merely a sign of God's benevolent presence in my heart pointing the way, not anything valid for anyone else but me. God's peace is not a revelation of any universal truth to me. If the peace of God were revelation, then God's individual call for me to come to Japan would be valid for all believers, and that is simply not so. Personal guidance does not equal revelation.

 

The reviews at Amazon--well, isn't that a great source of information! :tongue3: (Just joshin' you.) But really, have you ever looked at how many people just put 5 stars on all of their reviews?

 

Great way of putting it John. Thanks.

 

I have over and over applied these words of Mueller when making major decisions, and found them to be entirely Scriptural and useful. An absolute offering of our complete selves on the altar of God, holding nothing back, is such a precious teaching and so vital to knowing God's will. As Mueller states, it is here that so many go wrong--we must decide to have no will of our own, only God's will, and then God can guide us.

 

John,

Your position on Friessen’s book was a common one years ago from some in fundamentalism. I haven’t heard that opinion in years about his book. I think people realized that Friessen was on to something. I don’t agree with him en toto, but in the main, he was dead right..

As for peace and revelation, perhaps you didn’t read closely, or I wasn’t clear. I didn’t say peace itself was revelation. The context was peace as a tool for decision making. People said essentially, “You can know God’s will because he will give you peace about it.” I see no way to separate that from revelation. You are getting information from God about a particular topic with respect to a decision. You would have to explain to me how that is not revelation.

I believe the peace of God exists and passes all understanding. But it is never, in Scripture, said to be a tool for decision making, and that was my point. If you think peace should be used as a tool in decision making, then it seems the burden of proof is on you to show that biblically. I would like to see it.

I used to believe what virtually everyone here has said. I remember the first time I heard someone articulate what I have said. I was in a class, and I publicly questioned the teacher on it, and made clear my disagreement. Now, I see that he was right. Having lived that life of looking for “peace,” I know very well what it is about. When I read Friessen for the first time, I had to laugh. It was like he knew me. He said things that I had been coming to conclusions about over a long period of time from Scripture, but was struggling with because it ran contrary to everything I had been taught and everything I believed. But Scripture was convincing me, and Friessen made me realize I wasn’t alone.

Again, I don’t buy it all, but I think in the main Friessen is right.

I would encourage all to read and study for themselves on the topic. If some have peace about disagreeing with me, I have peace about that.

 

So you are not a cessationist? I think that's ultimately what it comes down to. If God is still giving communication outside the written word, then we have opened a very large door with huge ramifications.

2 Tim 3:16-17 claims that God's word equips us for "every good work." Therefore, if there is a "good work" that we are called to do, we are equipped for it by the word, not by other means. We serve the same God to be sure, but that is a red herring. No one says otherwise. It is misleading to suggest that we do. But God has not always worked the same with people. At different times in history, he has worked in different ways.

Now, he works through his revelation in Scripture.

 

I think this is a non sequitur. God has often given revelation that wasn't for everyone. He called Paul to a particular task, but that wasn't valid for all believers.

So if peace is the gift of God confirming a particular decision, how is that not revelation? I think you have a hard time avoiding it, without changing the basic nature of revelation.

BTW, distinguishing revelatino from inspiration is hardly helpful, it seems to me.

But alas, I have enjoyed the conversation. Hopefully it will be beneficial to those who have read.

 

There seems a tendency nowadays to cast away all the wisdom of past years, and I object strongly to that. One of the modern mega church pastors (don't remember who) was quoted as saying he never reads a book older than X number of years. I think that is so foolish. There are good new books, such as the one I recommended by a seminary prof every bit the scholar that Friesen is but with a very different take, but the old should not be rejected out of hand.

I have books on the will of God by old time preachers such as F. B. Meyer and G. Campbell Morgan, and of course George Mueller that paint a completely different view than Friessen, one that I believe with all my heart in.

These old timers believed that the will of God was only for those completely and absolutely surrendered to God, not the light view of "how is God going to make me happy" that Friesen set up as his straw man. "The one and only law of life that sets a man free from all the forces that blight and destroy is the Will of God. Show me a man who lives for one day wholly, utterly, in word and thought and deed in the Will of God, and I will show you a man who is antedating heaven, and who for that day reaches the plane of life which is at once broadest, freest and gladdest" (God's Perfect Will, by G. Campbell Morgan, p. 13).

Interact with me here. Did he change his position that the call of God in the Bible is supernatural revelation in his 2nd edition? If so, how do you explain Elisha's call, etc.? Did he say anything about praying for God's guidance in his re-write? He didn't even include that in his straw man "traditional view" in his first edition, and I can't find where he recommended it. I object strongly to that. How is it a walk of faith to not pray about something? We are enjoined in the Bible to pray about everything.

I don't see peace in the Bible as a tool to finding God's will. This may be a place where I agree with Friesen if that is how he puts it. I look at God's peace as a sign that you are in God's will after you have headed down the road God has led you in. Thus, many times here in Japan I have been discouraged and wanted to quit the field, but I have always had a tremendous assurance from the Lord that I was in the right place. I wasn't necessarily happy, and I didn't necessarily want to stay here, but I knew God's will. This to me is exactly what is taught in the Bible, such as in Is. 26:3--"Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on thee, because he trusteth in thee."

Do you want to call that revelation? If so, you and I have a very different view of revelation. Mine is the traditional view taught in such books as Revelation and Inspiration by James Orr. The traditional doctrine of revelation nowhere deals with God's Holy Spirit leading individuals, His will if you will. In fact, I dare you to find such a view in a more recent systematic theology such as Erickson's Christian Theology. It isn't there.

Would you say that God leading someone specifically in His will to, say, Africa, is revelation? If so, than God becomes distant, not Someone who cares that much what we do, as long as we are happy about it.

 

Exactly my point! When Paul was called to a particular task, that was not revelation but God's will for him.

But theology consistently does this. Check out any solid book on the subject, such as Orr's book that I mentioned. Check out any systematic theology and you will find revelation and inspiration distinguished, as well as defined differently.

Hey, I've been enjoying it too. I'm hopeful that it helps any reader sort through this very important subject.

 

My Dad was a "whale of a 42 player". He had a saying that has proved to be right. "Study long, Study wrong." Sometimes we "consider" too much. Make your decision quickly to leave in His hands.

Whatever is in your heart the Holy Spirit will find it, making it known to God the Father, as you pray to the Father in the name of your Lord Jesus Christ. Listen to your heart and not your head in matters such as this. Romans 8:26-28. In your head you will Study it to death. That's too long.

 

I want to share a passage that I feel is foundational to what I've been saying. Gary Friesen only deals with this verse in passing, and only then (very strangely) as a verse that is set aside by the fictional preacher teaching what Friesen labels as the "traditional view" (p. 54). The "traditional" preacher says, "Based on a possible interpretation of Psalm 37:4 and Philippians 2:13, the idea is that if I am really dedicated to the Lord, my desires will always be identical with the Lord's." This is not an accurate representation by the fictional preacher of what I believe the verse teaches, nor does Friesen ever deal with the verse later.

Note Ps. 37:4-5, "Delight thyself also in the Lord, and He shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass." I don't believe this means what the straw man preacher said. I believe it means that when you delight yourself in the Lord He will actually change your thoughts to fit His!

Go back and read what I posted that Mueller wrote and you will see what I mean. Again, Bruce Walthe puts it this way: "The Spirit of God in your life, together with the influence of the Word, illuminates the thoughts of the Lord. As you put God's Word into practice, He establishes your thoughts so that you participate in His eternal plan" (Finding the Will of God: a Pagan Notion? p. 37).

But what does it mean to delight yourself in the Lord? I pondered this concept for years before I finally cross-referenced Isaiah 58 and understood. Note vv. 13-14: “If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

So to delight yourself in the Lord means to consider God’s Word and His commands and His guidance to be your absolute joy, your goal in all of your life, as you cast away your own pleasures and your own will. It means to believe that being His slave is better than being Bill Gates’ best friend! It means that if He calls you to go to the poorest tribe in the poorest country in the entire world, and eat grubs in the jungle with the faint hope that they won’t kill you before you can give them the precious Word of God—then you joyfully go and count it the greatest privilege possible to have the chance to spend and be spent, to die for Christ the martyr’s death if need be! And all the time you know you are unworthy to unlatch the sandals of the Savior, but you don’t care, because “there is joy in serving Jesus!”

Let me tell you how it works. Ask any missionary you know: 90% of us turn the Lord down when He calls us to be a missionary, including me. When He called me to Japan, I immediately said “No way, Lord” (a huge contradiction). However, since I am an honest man the Lord reminded me that I had said when I was sixteen that I would follow Him anywhere, and He was holding me to that promise.

Now, if I were following Friesen’s method, I would not be in Japan. I would be using my earthly, “spiritual” wisdom and following in my grandfather’s footsteps in America, winning a lot more souls to Christ in America then I ever could here! Grandpa Rice told me, “Johnny, you can win more souls in America than you can in Japan. Why don’t you stay in America?” I loved and respected him so much that I was tongue-tied, and to this day I don’t know what I said. But what I should have said is, “I have a call, Grandpa!”

It was not until I came here that I realized how carefully God had prepared me “from my mother’s womb” to be a missionary. For example, I never knew until I started language school that I had a talent for language. Sure, I made good grades in Latin, Greek and Hebrew, but so what? Then I had the privilege of getting up early, riding trains and walking for two hours to sit through three hours of Japanese, one of the most difficult languages in the world, before going back home and studying until late. And I absolutely loved it! Those were the two best years of my life! Now I am a church planting missionary linguist, having written several books in Japanese and taught Greek in Japanese. I am now working on a new Japanese NT—all things I would never have chosen for myself. You see, God knows best after all! :godisgood: :jesus:

 

John,

I would not cast off the wisdom of previous years at all. I am currently reading The Reformed Pastor and Pilgrim’s Progress, both books from bygone eras. I am also reading Spurgeon’s Lectures to My Students, along with the biography of John Newton, Ed Stetzer’s book on church planting, and a book on Joshua. (Yes, I know … what am I thinking???)

However, we should cast off bad wisdom from previous years, which I think you agree. The question is, What is bad? I remember growing up hearing how bad Friesen was. And I grew up with the “peace” view of the will of God. And I was totally and completely handicapped by it. When I began to think through the Scriptures, to wrestle with the nature of God’s revelation to us, and what the Bible says about “peace,” I began to change. But I was very uncomfortable because of how I had been taught. But in time, it all came around for me. I have peace about what I believe now

It’s been almost ten years since I read Friesen, so I don’t recall everything. I don’t share your impressions of it, nor do I agree with everything in it. I don’t recall Friesen setting up the “happiness” straw man. I don’t think he downplays prayer. In fact, on pages 194-96, he cites James 1 as commanding prayer for wisdom. On page 233-34 he says,

So it seems to me that Friesen does not downplay prayer.

As for the call being supernatural, on this I admit some level of agnosticism though I lean towards saying that a vocational call still exists for ministry. I don’t think that is mediated by peace, however. I think it is mediated by desires and gifts. I believe I am called to pastor, and to pastor this particular church at this time. I believe that mainly because it’s what I seem to be gifted for (and others have agreed with that assessment), and it’s what I want to do. I have no desire to do anything else (most days). But I think Friesen makes some good points about it.

I am not sure what the issue with Elisha is. Didn’t his call come from Elijah, a prophet of God, under revelation from God?

When you say I look at God's peace as a sign that you are in God's will after you have headed down the road God has led you in, I don’t have a great disagreement with that. But I would stress that peace comes after obedience, not before. In fact, before obedience, particularly in tough situations, peace rarely exists. I wouldn’t call that revelation. But that is not the focus of my comments.

I am focusing on peace as a prerequisite to action, some sort of message from God that a particular choice is the correct one. I have a very traditional view of revelation, both general and special. It is essentially communication from God. And it seems to me that that is what the traditional view advocates: God communicated to me through his “peace” that I should do X. Again, I don’t know how that is anything but revelation. It is not verbal revelation, but revelation is not always verbal.

No, I don’t think God leading someone to Africa, or anywhere else, is revelation. But if God gives “peace” that Africa is the place of service, than how is that not revelation? I do believe in the leading of God. I don’t see any biblical evidence that “peace” is a part of that leading. So far, you have offered no Scripture to dissuade me from my position.

Consider this: Joe and Mary have a desire for foreign missions. They pray about a place to go. They say, “God gave us peace that we should go to Africa.” What is that? Are you uncomfortable with that? I am … very much.

I think it much wiser to evaluate God’s revealed purpose for life in Scripture (the establishment and growing of local churches), God’s particular gifts on a person’s life (whether teaching, leading, administrating, etc.), and the particular desires a person has. Joe and Mary should perhaps go to Africa. But they should be more clear in their reasoning.

Consider this: John has been dating Suzie. John believes he is called to ministry. Suzie hates the ministry, but likes John. Suzie spends a lot of money and is very spiritually immature. She rarely attends church unless she goes with John. But John thinks Suzie is beautiful, and has a bouncy personality. He like being around her. So John prays about it and has a peace from God that he should marry Suzie. What would you tell him?

I would tell him No. Ignore the peace. You may need to wait for a few years to see how Suzie grows and matures. You may need to abandon her forever. But at all costs, ignore the peace.

Consider this: Bill believes he has been called into ministry. His church has tried to help him learn to preach and study, to lead and disciple people. He has proven to be an absolute failure at it. He has no public speaking ability. He cannot teach. He is lazy. He is unwilling to study doctrine. But he has a peace that he is supposed to be a pastor. What would you tell him?

I would tell him No. He is not qualified. He may continue to keep working at it, and submit himself to a godly pastor and church. But as of now, he should not act on his peace.

All three of these are real situations, faced every day by people and pastors. And looking for “peace” is leading people down the wrong path too often, it seems to me.

I think it was the revelation of God’s will for him.

I am not sure why I said that. I am looking back trying to figure it out. Revelation and inspiration are different. I am not sure why I said they should not be distinguished. 4:09AM causes me to say weird things ... But I do that all the time anyway, I guess.

 

I agree with you on this. But how is this “peace”? (I am not sure Friesen disagrees.)

How is this different than what Friesen says? I am going from memory here (and have not read Walthe), but I think this is exactly what I would say. And I see no “peace” in there. You follow God’s word and adopt his heart.

Perhaps we are talking past each other, or perhaps not, but I think we follow what God has revealed, adopt his mission for life, and do what we desire to do. Obviously, it is more complex than simply that, but God does change our hearts and desires. But I don’t see how that is “peace.”



And with that, I must quit here.

 

Nope, I am not a cessationist. I find nothing in Scripture that leads me to this view.

Larry, I have a peaceful feeling about you today.

Well forget that, sorry I couldn't find that anywhere in Scripture. So obviously that cannot be right.

(Sorry couldnt resist)

We shall just agree to disagree.

 

First and foremost is the Revealed Will of God.

We all have to know and comply to the revealed will of God.

If we are in compliance to the revealed will then the other's providential areas will fall in place.

I don't want to trivialize the un-written will but before it comes the written will.

We all need to do this with respect to the revealed will of God.

One day make a list of all the statements about the revealed will of God to the Church.

Next examine your life and see if you are in this revealed will - if so you are in the center of God's perfect will.

You can't be in the center of God's perfect will if you are not in compliance to the Revealed will.

So that is the first step to knowing the providential aspect of God's will that is not written specifically for your life.

The revealed will is the same for us all. The un-know providential will is different for each of us.

If you and I are loving God with our heart, mind, body, and soul according to Scripture we are in God's perfect will.

Then and only then will your desire be God's desire. Then making the choices of life (1) where to work, (2) where to go to school, (3) how to marry etc will fall in place and not be that difficult.

Move self out of the way and submit to the revealed will in all things and it will be much easier if not a "cake walk". The will of God is more obvious and clear when we are in the perfect revealed will of God given to us in His word.

All the choices we make to do this or that must comply with the revealed will or as some call it the moral will.

I hope this helps. Right decisions are based upon moral clarity. The desires of your heart are OK for you to pursue when you are in God's Perfect Revealed Will.

You desire to go to College - Are you in God's Perfect revealed will and does the college match up to God's standard for serving and living for God in his perfect revealed will which we all can know?